The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government

Good afternoon. We are ready to begin. The first item today is questions to the Minister for Finance and Local Government, and the first question is from Altaf Hussain.

Financial Reserves

Altaf Hussain AS: 1. What discussions has the Minister held with colleagues in local government about the use of financial reserves? OQ58771

Rebecca Evans AC: I have discussed local authority reserves with leaders as part of our ongoing discussions on pressures and funding. All leaders have stressed that they are already using reserves to manage their current pressures and expect to have to continue to do so next year.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. Minister, in March 2020, the Welsh Government reported all local authority reserves to be £1.5 billion, which increased by 42 per cent to £2.13 billion by March 2021. To put this into context, in this current financial year, the revenue support grant allocated by you to local authorities was £3.9 billion. I accept that local authorities need to hold money in reserve and it's not a simple matter as to how those reserves can be used, but, as you discuss the overall financial position with local authorities over the next month, would you assure the Senedd that vast sums of money will not just be left in local authority bank accounts whilst council leaders at the same time complain about the lack of money to provide essential services? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: I'll just refer the Member to my original answer, which does reassure colleagues in the Senedd that I do discuss local authority reserves with them regularly as part of our general discussions in relation to finance. But I just want to be really clear as well that the position that is reported in the annual reporting mechanism is only the situation on one day of the year—the end of the financial year; it doesn't reflect movements up and down within the year. And, of course, the level of reserves are a matter for the individual local elected members and they will reflect the longer term plans that those authorities have as well as managing the short-term pressures, and there are plenty of those short-term pressures at the moment.
And I think that we need also to see local authority reserves in the wider context in terms of the overall budget of local government. At an all-Wales level, the widest interpretation of usable reserves is 26 per cent of the total annual expenditure. So, that's three months' provision for the costs of all of local government. General or unallocated reserves would cover just 10 days. So, I think that, even though authorities' reserves are higher than they are normally, they still just recognise that there are many, many calls on those reserves. As I say, authorities are already using some of them to manage the extreme pressures of the cost-of-living crisis and the impact of inflation on local authorities, and I expect they would intend to do so next year as well. So, I just reassure colleagues, really, that I do have confidence that local authority colleagues are considering the use of reserves in an appropriate way, and to recognise as well that the level of reserves this year does recognise that, at the end of the financial year, previously, I allocated an additional £50 million to local authorities, bearing in mind that, even before the cost-of-living crisis and the situation in Ukraine, we recognised, because of the three-year spending review, that years 2 and 3 were going to be more difficult. So, I hope that that does put authorities in a better position than they would otherwise have been to manage the pressures next year. But, that said, you'll have seen that local authorities are telling us that they're already expecting to see a gap in funding of hundreds of millions of pounds, which is obviously of concern to them and to us.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you for confirming what I've actually heard in briefings that have been made available to me and to other Senedd Members of other parties about not just the financial budgetary pressures facing local authorities, but also discussing the reserves. And that figure that you've cited, that if it was all thrown at the current pressures, we might have three months before all those reserves are used up, regardless of the fact that most of it is currently allocated for other uses—. So, can I ask, in your meetings with local authority leaders going forward, particularly Andrew Morgan of Rhondda Cynon Taf and Huw David of Bridgend in my areas, could you ask them, if there were any Members of this Senedd—some of whom are former council leaders—who were unable to attend those briefings, and to see the scale of the pressures that are currently facing our local authorities, to invite them again to sit down with officers in that local authority and just see how far the reserves would go?

Rebecca Evans AC: Absolutely. I think local authorities have been incredibly transparent in terms of the financial challenges that they're facing, and I'm pleased that they have been able to offer, on a regional basis, opportunities for all Members of the Senedd to better understand those pressures at a very local level. I know they'd be more than happy to engage again with any colleagues who have not managed to attend one of those sessions. I think, in those sessions, you'll have heard that they will have seen pressures right across local government, but particularly in relation to pay inflation, energy costs, schools in particular, social care, the response to Ukraine and wider migration, and also housing and homelessness, and, obviously, all the challenges around the tight capital settlement as well. So, I would absolutely encourage all colleagues to engage with their local authorities to get underneath those challenges.

The UK Government's Autumn Statement

Sioned Williams MS: 2. What consideration has the Minister given to the impact of the autumn statement on the Welsh Government financial support that will be available for local authorities in South Wales West? OQ58788

Rebecca Evans AC: Ahead of the autumn statement, I called on the Chancellor to invest in people and public services. While there was some additional funding in the UK Government announcements, it failed to address the significant gaps in funding for public services.

Sioned Williams MS: Yes, I'd agree, Minister. Our local authorities are facing huge financial pressures, and I'd like to echo what Huw Irranca-Davies said about the importance of engagement not only in those briefings, but I know, in Neath Port Talbot, the council is going out into all the communities of the local authority area to have public meetings so that people fully understand what's at stake here and to ask for ideas about how things can be managed. There are specific pressures on local authority budgets in terms of the increasing demand on social care in my region. In Neath Port Talbot, for example, there's been a steady increase in referrals to adult social services and children and young people's services over the last two years, and Bridgend council recognises in its own words that gaps exist in social care services. Without additional funding to meet the need for social services for adults and children, it will be impossible, of course, to solve some of the causes of the crisis in the health service—for example, people unable to leave hospitals, and more people going to hospital due to pressure on families that don't have the right support. According to the Wales fiscal analysis team, the Chancellor's recent autumn statement means there'll be an additional £1.2 billion available to the Welsh Government over the next two years as a result of the Barnett consequentials. So, can the Minister provide assurances that the funding included in this £1.2 billion for local government social care services is passported in full during the next two years into local government settlements?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful to the Member for the question, and for reiterating the same message I'm hearing from leaders as well in terms of the specific pressures on social care. They're also very keen to impress upon me the pressures in education as well, and those are two of the main areas of expenditure for local authorities. And I would also welcome and encourage people to engage with the work that local authorities are doing in terms of trying to reach out to the public, so that the public understands the very real pressures that the authority is under locally, but also then that authorities can take decisions having listened to the public on what their priorities are for their particular area. So, I do commend that outreach work that local authorities are doing across Wales.
It is the case that the autumn statement did mean that we would receive in Wales an extra £1.2 billion over the next two years as a result of consequentials through the autumn statement. What I will say is that it means £666 million next year, and that, even still, leaves a gap of around £1 billion in our budget as a result of pressures. So, there will inevitably be difficult decisions for us to take as a Welsh Government, and also difficult decisions for public services more generally. I'll be publishing our budget on 13 December, so I don't want to give too much detail at this point, particularly because we still haven't come to those final decisions, and we're having ongoing discussions with partners—I'm talking to colleagues about the pressures they're seeing in their particular areas. But I've listened very carefully to what the Member has said about that particular area of priority.
I'd also say, in relation to the £1.2 billion, that it is helpful if colleagues understand where the consequentials have come from. Now, I'm very much of the view that consequential funding comes to the Welsh Government and the Welsh Government will take the decisions in relation to where that funding goes; it's not a case of just passporting money on. And it's a case, really, of understanding what the pressures are, because I think we do the Welsh Treasury, the Welsh Government, this Senedd, a disservice if we're just seen as a kind of post box for consequential funding. So, what we will do is undertake serious pieces of work looking at where the pressures are, where our priorities are as a Government, and, particularly also, looking at our programme for government. Obviously, we have shared interests in that area as well.
And just to finally add on that, 44 per cent of that £666 million for next year relates to new schemes in the field of business rates. So, obviously, we're looking very carefully at support for business. So, what I will say is that when the Chancellor gave the impression that it was £1.2 billion for public services, I think that that was slightly misleading and there's a lot more to unpick underneath those figures.

Tom Giffard AS: Minister, in your prepared answer there, you called on the Chancellor to invest in people and public services. Well, I think we can call on you to do the same. You've had £1.2 billion extra from the UK Government, on top of a record settlement that existed already. So, how much can local government expect? We know that investment in social care leads to better health outcomes, to savings in the NHS. So, perhaps you can enlighten us today on how much local government can expect from this wonderful windfall?

Rebecca Evans AC: I will enlighten the Member on 13 December, Llywydd, when I publish the draft budget. It's not too long to wait now, but there's a lot of work which needs to be undertaken rapidly between now and then. But, on 13 December, we'll be publishing the Welsh Government draft budget alongside that whole suite of information that we always publish—the chief economist's report, our narrative that goes along with the document, and some of our other analysis as well. We always try to publish as much information in as much detail as we can.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions not from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Peter Fox.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and good afternoon, Minister. I've got a feeling I know what the answer to my first question will be. Over the last few weeks, Minister, we've spoken a lot about the challenging fiscal environment, as well as the UK Government's response to this in its autumn statement, which, of course, provided a welcome injection of additional funding to the Welsh Government, as well as protecting the most vulnerable in society. In the local government family, however, there is worrying uncertainty and concern about future funding commitments to local authorities. Councils are calling for their share of additional moneys to help meet future budget shortfalls, much like your political colleagues in Torfaen cabinet, who last week said that they will be, quote, 'lobbying really hard' for the additional monies from UK Government to be passported to local authorities. Minister, I'm sure, within the finance forum, council leaders have shared their concerns robustly. Can I ask, then, whether they can expect additional support, moving forward, and can you provide assurances that any new Government policies or burdens levelled on councils will be fully funded?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'd just refer to my previous answer to the Member's colleague, but I will say that I do meet very regularly with local government leaders. My officials meet very regularly with officers, including treasurers across local government, to discuss the particular pressures that they are facing. I've got to say that the work that the Welsh Local Government Association presents us with is always very useful in terms of understanding those particular pressures, and understanding the quantum of funding that local government tells us that it would need to continue running the services and to continue delivering for people in their communities. And then, of course, my officials will test those figures with local government to come to a better understanding of them.So, just to reassure, that level of engagement is going on. We are listening very carefully to what local government is telling us that it needs, and also very carefully to what other public services are telling us they need, and, obviously, other parts of Welsh life as well that have an interest.
But, just to say, really, this budget is probably the hardest one that we've faced, probably since devolution, I think, and there are going to be really difficult decisions made. So, it's not a budget where we're looking to do lots of new things; it's a budget where we're focusing very much in a laser-like fashion on the things that really, really matter and that we need to protect.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you for that, Minister, and I concur with Huw Irranca-Davies. I chaired, or hosted a meeting for Members to join local authority leaders, and, sadly, I was the only one who turned up, even though we had 10 south-east Wales leaders on the call sharing the scale of their issues. And the scale of the challenge is huge, and the financial outlook is challenging. But some councils are far better equipped to face this than others.Minister, as I've said on a number of occasions, the formula for funding councils is out of date and is unfair. It sees some councils able to stack up colossal useable reserves while others struggle to meet their needs. I understand reserves, I can absorb the stock answers, but I understand the situation, as most local government members here will.
As Altaf Hussain mentioned in his previous question, we saw an increase of over 35 per cent in useable reserves held at March 2021 to £2.1 billion. Now, sad as I am in taking some time to trawl through the draft statement of accounts for March 2022 over the weekend, I've noticed an increase of well over 30 per cent again, some almost 50 per cent, with a circa increase of probably £600 million at March 2022, leaving a collective useable reserve pot of £2.75 billion. However, it's not a fair distribution. Some, at March of this year, held well over £200 million whilst others hold minimal useable reserves.
Minister, do you think that, at a time of such financial pressure for our country, it's right for some councils to hold so much in reserves? I know that a portion will be school balances and some will be capital, but some councils hold significant amounts of useable reserves in dormant, unused, earmarked accounts. So, shouldn't the Government find better and fairer ways to distribute finance? Especially at the moment, so that councils don't have to rely so much on hard-pressed council tax payers who can ill afford—

Don't go over the page, because you're already on 2 minutes 20 seconds. So, if you can ask the questions.

Peter Fox AS: I think I'm fine.

Yes, I think you asked a few questions.

Rebecca Evans AC: I understand the question, and to be fair to the Member it is a question that he does raise regularly. I don't share that level of concern at the level of reserves that local authorities have, because I think that, when we're going into what will be the most difficult couple of years for local authorities, for them to be in a better financial position than they would otherwise have been, I think, is a good thing. Part of that is the additional funding that we've provided through the crisis of the pandemic, of course. Also, there will be different things affecting local authorities. The Member will know that there was lots of activity that didn't take place, which had been planned during the pandemic, and that has again led to the rising of some reserves in some authorities. But, he's absolutely correct that levels of reserves are different across different authorities. I don't think that that's a factor of the local government settlement and the formula, however, because the formula looks at a whole range of measures, many of them are related to the nature and the context of the population that is being served and the nature of the geography of the area that is being served, and neither of those things relates to reserves in particular. If local authorities wanted to look at the settlement through the lens of reserves, then, we could ask the distribution sub-group to do some work on that, but it's not something that any authority leader has raised with me at this point.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, but the system isn't working, because it's allowing councils to continue to rise council tax whilst at the same time growing reserves in some cases. Your predecessor Leighton Andrews saw this and produced a guide for councils in 2016 to help them understand and better scrutinise reserves and how they may be used. Minister, will you consider reviewing earmarked reserves held by some councils in the same way that councils do with their schools, to understand if earmarked reserves are genuinely being used for their intended purposes, perhaps assessing if they have been drawn down in the past five years or longer and, if not, question why? Some will have held core reserves for many, many years. Earmarked revenue reserves are the same as general reserves, they're just stored in a different place and they are available to be used in any way. So, some may say that they are for a rainy day. Well, Minister, it's pouring down, but some councils have huge umbrellas, others have tiny parasols. So, do you agree that such an analysis of held earmarked reserves should take place as soon as possible to enable you to consider a more sustainable approach to funding valuable public services across the country?

Rebecca Evans AC: I would say that local authorities are telling us that they are seeing massive pressures and gaps in their budget, both in this financial year and next financial year, and that they are looking to reserves to, in part, meet that challenge. I'm more than happy to ask my officials to have some further discussions with the Treasury on the specific point in terms of understanding reserves and the use of them. I don't think that local authorities have been anything other than straight with us when they tell us about the pressures that they are facing at the moment, and we do enter into lengthy discussions with them about the pressures ahead. But reserves can only be used once. Lots of the pressures that local authorities are facing relate to pay in particular, and, obviously, using reserves to meet pay pressures isn't a sustainable solution to that particular problem. I'm very happy to have further open discussions with local government on this issue.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. There was reference in this Chamber last week to work by the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, scrutinising the Welsh Government's accounts for 2020-21, which found that there'd been an underspend of £526 million and, as a result, £155 million of funding allocated to Wales had been returned to the Treasury. I'm sure you'd wish to say something about that. But more recently, my understanding is that, in the last few weeks, the Welsh Treasury estimated that there's about £80 million of unallocated funding in the Welsh budget at the moment. Now, the health Minister, of course, directly contradicted that in her contribution here last week, when she said that there's currently no unallocated spending and no underspendwhen she was asked about the Welsh Government's budget and the current figure for the Welsh reserve. So, can you set the record straight this afternoon and give us clarity regarding the current estimate of unallocated funding and underspend in the Welsh Government budget, as it stands at the moment?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very happy to set the record straight on both of those issues, and I'm grateful, particularly in relation to the first question, to have the opportunity to do so. On 5 August, I did write to the Finance Committee, and the letter has since been also shared with PAPAC, demonstrating that in the 2020-21 financial year, which was, of course, the extraordinary COVID year, the Welsh Government did operate within the overall departmental expenditure limit budgetary control set by Treasury, but, unfortunately, we weren't offered a level of flexibility to move money from revenue into capital to help us manage that particular issue. And, as a result of that inflexibility, there was funding returned to the UK Government.
But I think the most important point here to note is that the total underspend in 2020-21 by all UK Government departments was £25 billion, and that represents almost 6 per cent of the total provision made available to those departments in that year. All underspends by UK departments were returned to HM Treasury and, actually, the Department of Health and Social Care alone underspent by over 9 per cent, and that department alone returned £18.6 billion to Treasury. A Barnett share of that would have amounted to around £1 billion for Wales, and I think that that partly is behind the reason that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has been so unwilling to offer us a level of flexibility. That's one of the issues that we have, of course: we need a much more settled way of dealing with these year-end issues, because relying on the flexibility, or otherwise, of whoever happens to be the CST at that point isn't an appropriate way to go forward.
So, just to finish this particular point, the overall underspend for Wales in that extraordinary year was only 1 per cent of the available resources, and I think that demonstrates the effectiveness with which our resources were managed during the extremely challenging circumstances. And it does continue the Welsh Government's record of being amongst the best UK Government departments, as they would see us, in Treasury terms, and devolved Governments in terms of utilising our budgets. So, I'm grateful to have the opportunity to put that on record. I'm happy to share that letter that I sent to the Finance Committee with all colleagues, perhaps, by putting it in the Library, Llywydd.
On the point of reserves, at the final budget agreed in March 2022, the unallocated DEL stood at £100 million revenue and an overprogrammed capital budget of £76 million. In the first supplementary budget, then, which was quoted in the exchange with the health Minister, the unallocated DEL was £152 million, and that was largely as a result of consequentials from the UK Government's spring statement and main estimates, and the overprogrammed capital positionreduced to £68 million following a reduction in spending forecasts, but then that was offset again by the £30 million contribution in relation to Ukraine.
Since then, of course, we've seen the cost-of-living crisis very much take hold, so I don't think it's appropriate to give a running total of where we are in terms of pressures across Government and where we have the ability to respond to that within the reserve, just because that situation literally changes on a day-to-day basis. So, I have monthly monitoring reports from every colleague across Government, setting out where they are overspending and underspending against various items; I then discuss those with officials and we consider what appropriate mechanisms we have to respond to that to mean that we can bring the budget in where it needs to be at the end of the year. That situation does change all of the time, but what I will say is that the funding that we have available at the moment in reserves does not, by any stretch of the imagination, meet the pressures that we see across Government, which I think was what the health Minister was trying to convey in that exchange.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Okay, thank you for that, but I think we can surmise, therefore, that it isn't true to say that there isn't any at the moment. I respect your wish not to offer a running commentary, but when we have different messages coming from different people, I think we need a degree of transparency around that. I fully concur with the point you made about end-of-year flexibilities, and this, again, reflects on the current settlement and arrangements around funding, which, obviously, are ones that we've highlighted and come at from a very similar standpoint, I'd imagine.
Now, it just underlines, of course, the need to make sure that every pound works as hard as possible, particularly in the current financial climate. I noticed in the Welsh Government's response to the Finance Committee's report on post-EU funding, which I know is the subject of a debate later on this afternoon, but there's one particular point in that response that I just wanted to highlight to you, the Government says in its response that,
'The remaining ERDF and ESF programme spend in Wales is £619 million,'
as of the end of October just gone. Now, the projected spend from that by the end of January is £170 million. So, that leaves £450 million to be spent on activity to be delivered up to the summer and, obviously, claimed for by December next year. Are you confident that that money will be fully utilised? Can you assure us that there won't be any underspend in that respect and that no funds will actually be sent back or lost to Wales? Do you acknowledge that if that does happen, then it will represent a huge failure at a time when, as I say, Wales needs to utilise every single penny that we can?

Rebecca Evans AC: We absolutely aim to use all of the European funding that has come to Wales, and that is, actually, one of the tools that we have to be able to manage our budget within the financial year—to take decisions as to when, exactly, we draw down that European funding, and help us manage the overall budget position. So, it is a tool that we're able to use and that we consider actively throughout the year. But, absolutely, it's our intention to use all of the funding, of course, that has come to Wales.

The UK Government's Autumn Statement

Ken Skates AC: 3. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the UK Government's autumn statement on the management of Welsh Government resources? OQ58770

Rebecca Evans AC: Despite some additional revenue funding through the autumn statement, this has not gone anywhere close to meeting the gap in the Welsh Government’s budget. This means that Ministers face difficult decisions as we prepare for this year’s draft budget.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, Minister. I can only imagine how difficult those decisions are going to be, because, as you say, the money that has come from Westminster, while it's an increase, doesn't cover those dreadful inflationary pressures that public services are facing the length and breadth of Wales. Minister, can you give us an indication of the guiding principles that will be followed in determining where and how much Government money is spent? Would you pledge to ensure that when decisions are made, maintaining the best mental health and well-being of the population will be a priority for all Ministers?

Rebecca Evans AC: I'm very grateful for that question. Just to give an idea of how we're approaching the budget discussions across Government, we are looking, really, very, very much so, at three particular aims. First, obviously, is to table a balanced budget, and, actually, that is much harder than you would imagine, given the fact that there is such a gap in funding, and that's where the difficult decisions will take place, in terms of what we're able to continue funding, where we might have to reprioritise funding away from. But also the second of the key areas that we want to continue to protect is public services. So, the protection of public services is our second pillar. And the third is the continued delivery of our programme for government, because of course that contains so many of our promises to people in Wales, and we're focused on delivering that. It might be that we end up delivering some things over a longer period than we'd initially anticipated. That's something that we need to consider, particularly, I think, on the capital side, where our capital budget falls in every year of this spending review, and there was no additional capital whatsoever in the autumn statement. So, again, that's the kind of difficult decision that colleagues might need to take. But just to reassure the Member that public services, by which we are obviously talking about health there, will remain a priority for the budget process.

Gareth Davies AS: Will the Minister agree that the UK Government's allocation of £1.2 billion is a reflection of the Conservative Government's plan to level up Wales by investing properly into our country, whilst the Welsh Government spend millions on continuous failed socialist projects, such as the failed state ownership of Cardiff Airport, the failed state ownership of a farm in Powys, and the failed state ownership of train services, while people in north Wales miss out on this funding? Is it not about time the Welsh Labour Government took ownership of the taxpayers' money and spent it properly? And will the Minister outline how she will work with the UK Conservative Government so that my constituents don't miss out?

Rebecca Evans AC: Your constituents are going to miss out. Every constituent that any of us has is going to miss out, because there's such a gap in public funding, and that's not going to come without without implications for public service delivery and for the services that people receive in their communities. So, I think that we need to just get real about the level of the challenges that we're facing in the budget. So, that's an important point.
So, no, the autumn statement doesn't by any means suggest that the UK Government is serious about levelling up. Quite the contrary—authorities are being denied the opportunity to spend any of the shared prosperity fund funding in this financial year, contrary to the previous commitments from the UK Government. And let's remember that, had we remained in the European Union, the long-term, multi-annual EU programmes would have begun almost two years ago in 2021—£375 million additional funding coming to us here in Wales every year. That's been lost, so what the UK Government is presenting as an offer in exchange for that to level up just doesn't even begin to come close.

Temporary Accommodation Spend

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 4. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Climate Change regarding the impact of temporary accommodation spend on local authority budgets? OQ58781

Rebecca Evans AC: Homelessness is a priority across Government, and I have regular conversations with ministerial colleagues about how we can work with local authorities to put cross-cutting solutions in place.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, and I declare an interest regarding property ownership. Now, the pack prepared for the Conwy county cabinet meeting that was held recently on 22 November states:
'The number of people accessing temporary accommodation is increasing at an alarming rate, which is having a significant impact on the homelessness budget.'
Given that the Welsh Government continue to ignore our warnings, I will now quote from the report that's been prepared for the Conwy County Borough Council Conwy First Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru coalition cabinet. They say:
'Demand is increasing largely due to private rented sector evictions. The highest recorded s21 notices (no fault evictions) in one week is 30 and is now averaging at around 15 a week. This is a combination of Renting Homes Wales Act implications, Buy to let mortgages and the increase in interest rates.'
So, there's absolutely no doubt that this Welsh Government's legislation on the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 is making people homeless, and is also contributing now to piling pressure on my local authority's taxpayers. Minister, rather than expect the cabinet of Conwy, who are already overstretched and underfunded by your Welsh Labour Government—. Why should they fund the increased costs of temporary accommodation? And I might tell you—

No. No, no, no, no. You'll have a chance again to tell her whatever you want to say. I think you have asked the question, have you?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Not yet. Almost there.

Okay. Quickly.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Almost there. Will you now commit to covering this extra expense, and will you also explain to this Senedd what steps you as a Government are actually taking to build the homes these people living in temporary accommodation need? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Obviously, Welsh Government is committed to ending homelessness across Wales, and in support of this we're investing over £197 million in homelessness and housing support services, as well as a record £310 million in social housing this financial year alone. And we have also made available £10 million to local authorities to support the provision of temporary accommodation, as we move towards a rapid rehousing approach. We've also provided additional funding to local authorities to provide interest-free property loans, for example, to landlords and homeowners for home improvements to renovate empty properties to bring them back up to standard for them to be used to increase the supply of housing locally. This also, actually, includes turning commercial properties into houses or flats as well.
So, there's a huge amount of work going on with local authorities. That scheme alone has been used to bring back over 1,600 homes into use across Wales, and supported improvements to a further 1,300 homes. And in addition to this as well, from a finance perspective, we're responding to the pressures in the system, so we've provided an additional £6 million for a discretionary homelessness prevention fund, and that provides maximum flexibility for local authorities to help people, both people who are receiving housing-related benefits and those who don't, to avoid homelessness. So, we are, as you can see, providing significant amounts of funding through local authorities and our registered social landlord partners to help prevent homelessness, but that doesn't for a second underestimate the scale of the challenge that is still ahead of us.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Minister, I'm aware that Conwy County Borough Council has a rapid rehousing policy that has gone down well in dire circumstances, and also that councils are advising private tenants to stay in place if they get no-fault eviction notices while they try and help them with that funding you've just mentioned. And I must say, it's really twisted of Welsh Conservatives to blame Welsh Government, who are doing all they can, when this is mainly down to the Tory cuts and financial pressures created at Westminster level. Minister, the local housing allowance being frozen in 2020 at well below market rent is one of the biggest issues we heard at the Local Government and Housing Committee, along with UK Government policies such as the bedroom tax. We heard at committee that, in Swansea, a three-bedroomed private house was £1,000 now, and the LHA only covered £500 of that rent. I understand that the discretionary housing payment fund, which can be used as a top-up, has also been cut by the UK Westminster Government. Is that correct?

Rebecca Evans AC: The discretionary housing payment funding, administered by the UK Government's Department for Work and Pensions, is 26 per cent less in 2022-23 than in the previous year. And bearing in mind that we are in the most dreadful time, in terms of the pressures on households, it's absolutely not the time to be cutting that vital support. Actually, that reduction follows an 18 per cent reduction in 2021-22 compared to the year before that. DHP funding in 2022-23 is the lowest amount Wales has received since the commencement of the UK Government's welfare reform policy, and I think that really speaks to how challenging this period is going to be for people across Wales who will rely on this funding.
And that's one of the reasons we've provided that extra £6 million to which I referred, and also why we've tried to make sure there's maximum flexibility for local authorities there. Authorities can offer preventative measures, such as offering a rent guarantee, they can pay for rent arrears as part of a package of action to sustain a tenancy, and they can also top up the discretionary housing payment funding locally, which I know some authorities have decided to do as well. So, we're trying to support authorities as much as possible, but I think that the way in which the UK Government is pulling back from that discretionary housing payment funding is something of deep concern to all of us.

The Rising Cost of Living

Jack Sargeant AC: 5. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of the rising cost of living on local government services? OQ58786

Rebecca Evans AC: Inflation of over 10 per cent has eroded the value of local government budgets to a worrying degree. In addition to the impact of rising costs for energy, pay, transport and food, councils are also working hard to address the impacts on their communities.

Jack Sargeant AC: Can I thank the Minister for that answer? And as you've stated, it's clear that finances are under real pressure. Services will be stretched in every direction possible, but the need to react to growing levels of poverty will be extremely tough. Who would have thought it, just even a year ago—one year ago—that we would be talking about warm banks being delivered by local councils across Wales, in every single one of our communities across Wales and the United Kingdom? Minister, amongst other things, the very existence of pre-pay meters will drive the demand for these warm banks. People are being switched to pre-pay meters and driven further into poverty. Perversely, they ensure that those least able to pay pay more for their energy, and they are only in the interests of the energy company profits and debt collection. Minister, this really is life and death in a cold winter. Do you agree with me that there should be an immediate moratorium on their installation, and that the UK Government should send a strong message to these energy suppliers about the very dangers of people being de facto disconnected every time they run out of credit?

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, I absolutely agree: the UK Government does need to be using all of its influence on the energy companies to reduce the impact of the cost-of-living crisis on the most vulnerable people. And just to reassure the Member—and I could hear a lot of support for what he was saying from others in the Chamber—that the Minister for Social Justice has met with energy suppliers earlier this month, and she did press them on this particular issue. And she has also previously sought and been given assurances by energy companies that arrangements were in place to reach out to households that were struggling with energy bills. And they did recognise the need to build in appropriate mechanisms of support, based on people's ability to pay, such as writing off short-term energy debt, agreeing affordable repayment plans, based on the ability to pay, and, where appropriate, referring households to schemes to improve their energy efficiency and reduce bills. So, I think now we need to be pressing energy companies to demonstrate what they've done in response to those discussions.

Sam Rowlands MS: Could I join Jack Sargeant in recognising some of the really important services that our local authorities provide day in and day out, especially at times of difficulty that many are experiencing at the moment? And as has all ready been highlighted by a number of Members around the Chamber, those local authorities are again experiencing some challenges in terms of their financial situation. One of the key concerns that has been raised with me is the fact that some councils in Wales have indicated to their schools that they should be preparing to reduce their budgets by around 10 per cent in the next financial year. I would have thought that schools and education are probably one of the core services that local authorities provide. So, my question, Minister, is whether you'll be giving instruction or guidance to local authorities, when determining their budgets in the next financial year, and would part of that instruction or guidance be in relation to those vital core services, such as funding for our schools?

Rebecca Evans AC: Well, I don't want to pre-empt the outcome of the ongoing budget discussions that are taking place across the board at the moment, but I will say the pressures on education, which the Member has described, have been brought home very strongly to Welsh Government by colleagues in local government, and my colleague the Minister for Education and Welsh Language always makes a very robust case for schools and education as well. So, I don't really want to go much further than that at this point. But, when we do come to publishing the budget, obviously I'll try and present colleagues with as much information as I can, and I know local authorities will want to set out their spending plans to colleagues as well.

Luke Fletcher AS: Could I associate myself with the comments of Jack Sargeant around pre-payment meters? They're wrong, they're immoral, and action needs to be taken on them as soon as possible. But I would be interested to know what conversations have also happened with energy companies around introducing a potential social tariff, similar to what we have with the water companies and broadband providers. I think this will also go a long way in providing energy to people who are struggling to pay.

Rebecca Evans AC: Absolutely, and that's something that we were pressing the UK Government for ahead of the autumn statement and ahead of the budget before that, in fact. But, in terms of discussions with energy companies, those tend to take place between both the Minister for Social Justice and the Minister for Climate Change; they will be the people who have the direct discussions with those energy companies. I'll perhaps ask those Ministers to provide Members with an update.

Local Government Reserves

Andrew RT Davies AC: 6. What discussions is the Minister having with local authorities about the use of local government reserves? OQ58793

Rebecca Evans AC: I have discussed local authority reserves with leaders as part of our ongoing discussions on pressures and funding. All leaders have stressed that they are already using reserves to manage their current pressures and expect to continue to have to do so next year.

Andrew RT Davies AC: This one has been around the Chamber already several times this afternoon, Minister. We've even had Leighton Andrews's name used this afternoon as well—the ghost of Christmas past. But, if we could try and think of the use of these reserves, because, as I understand it and as previous questions have highlighted, there's been a 35 per cent increase in these reserves, and local taxpayers will be aghast at that jump in those reserves to £2.7 billion when they're starting to see their own council tax demands coming in the new year. So, as finance Minister, will you do all you can to make sure that there isn't any squirrelling away in county halls and that ultimately these reserves will be put to best use so that council tax can be kept to a minimum in the new year and it'll pay their contribution with the cost-of-living pressures that people are feeling in their household budgets?

Rebecca Evans AC: Just to repeat what I said to colleagues earlier in relation to discussions I've been having with local government, they absolutely recognise the need to use those reserves both this year to manage some of the pressures, but also next year as well. I'm frankly relieved that local authorities are in a better financial position to enter the difficult period ahead, particularly when you compare them to their counterparts across the border in England, who have had funding stripped away from them back to the absolute bone over recent years. I'm sure that authorities in England would much prefer to be in a position where they do have at least some reserves to take them into the next year. That said, I absolutely recognise what has been said about the situation not being equal across Wales. It does vary from authority to authority. There are some authorities that do have smaller reserves and will obviously have less ability to call on those reserves in difficult times.

Public Services Boards

Alun Davies AC: 7. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the UK Government's autumn statement on the work of public services boards? OQ58773

Rebecca Evans AC: The autumn statement increases the pressure on public services. The funds provided for public services are being cut in real terms, squeezing their resources even further. This makes the work of public services boards to improve the well-being of their communities challenging, but more important than ever.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Minister for that response. Despite the best efforts of the Conservative Party this afternoon, anyone with any basic understanding or any financial understanding at all will appreciate the cuts that are being made in the Welsh Government's budget, both this year and in future years. However, what we're seeing is public services facing salami cuts year after year after year, and the consequence of that, of course, is reduced services to people that we all represent here. But, we're also seeing, Minister, an increasing complexity of governance in Wales. We're seeing a plethora of boards and commissions. We all know that there are far too many local authorities in the country. But, we're seeing increasing complexity that inhibits the delivery of services, particularly at a time when they are under significant financial pressures. So, will the Government undertake not simply to provide funds for local services in the best way it can, but also to review the complexity of government in Wales, with a view to streamlining the public sector to enable us to focus available funding on the front line and delivering services to the people who need them?

Rebecca Evans AC: We're absolutely committed to taking forward the recommendations from the review of the strategic partnerships, which was agreed by the partnership council for Wales. We are of the view, though, that any changes should be locally led and locally driven. We've seen a good example of that, I think, through the way in which the public services boards in Gwent have operated in terms of coming together and operating on a single footprint in that space. I'm not sure whether the Member 100 per cent agrees with me, but I'm more than happy to explore it further.
I do think that it is important that where there are opportunities for bodies to work more closely together they should. That's one of the reasons I'm pleased that we're undertaking a piece of work through the co-operation agreement at the moment that looks at strategic partnerships to ensure that they are fit for purpose, to ensure that they are on the right footprint, to ensure that they have the terms of reference that they need, to ensure that they're working across boundaries as best they can, and to identify barriers for better working so that those can be reduced as well. I think that piece of work will be helpful in terms of trying to rationalise partnerships where necessary, but also to make sure that the work is more focused and streamlined. That's a piece of work that is going on at the moment.
The intention is to take a report to the partnership council for Wales early in the new year once we've done interviews, if you like, with each of the strategic partnerships. Cefin Campbell and I have been having some really interesting meetings with the chairs of all of the strategic boards to get their perspectives and their experiences to help inform that piece of work, and we'll come forward with some thoughts on the way forward as a result of that. But, the short answer is that, yes, we're continuing to consider the strategic partnership landscape, although we're probably a little bit further away on the local government issue at this point, I think.

Finally, question 8, Llyr Gruffydd.

Income Tax Thresholds

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the devolution of setting income tax thresholds to Wales? OQ58797

Rebecca Evans AC: Devolution of the income tax thresholds would introduce opportunities and risks, and we would want to consider this as part of our wider strategy for devolved taxes. We need the UK Government to engage with us to review the process for securing the devolution of further tax powers to Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that. Of course, it's devolved to Scotland. That allows them to create thresholds that better reflect the profile of taxpayers in Scotland. And if you look at the taxpayer profile in Wales, of course, the vast majority of them are in the basic rate band, which is different, if you look at the figures, to the rest of the UK, in terms of the ratio of taxpayers, which then means, of course, that being forced to adopt Westminster's thresholds means that it doesn't reflect the needs and the situation here in Wales. It's, therefore, more regressive than it should be and, therefore, I want a clear message that you're keen for it to be devolved so that we can create thresholds that are more progressive and more reflective of the situation of incomes here in Wales. And may I ask whether you as a Government have considered carrying out any research or modelling to see what the possible options would be as part of making the case for the devolution of this area?

Rebecca Evans AC: I was pleased to see the Member at our tax conference, which took place last week. I hope that he enjoyed it as much as I did. I think one of the really interesting sessions was with representatives from Scotland and Northern Ireland, where they considered the different risks and opportunities of the different fiscal frameworks that we have.
The devolution of the thresholds would allow us to have more policy flexibility, and it would enable us to determine our own approach to Welsh rates of income tax in a different way, recognising income distribution in Wales and the importance of a more progressive system, where those who are able to afford it pay more tax. However, it would be difficult to devolve the thresholds without devolving the whole of the tax base. I think that that would then, potentially, increase greatly our exposure to risk via revenues and the associated block grant adjustment. I think that we need to be very careful that we have the capacity and the flexibility to manage those kinds of risks. We only have to look at the experience in Scotland to see that the exposure to the whole of the tax base can really lead to some budgetary issues. Remember that black hole that we talked about a few years ago when the reconciliation was taking place in terms of the projected tax take and what actually was received? So, there are potential risks.
It is true though to say that our tax base does differ from England's. We do have that higher proportion of basic rate taxpayers. Pay is also lower here in Wales. For full-time employees, the median weekly pay in April 2022 was 94 per cent of the UK average. I think that we'd need to consider all of those factors in relation to the suggestion to devolve the thresholds, because there would be considerable risks that come alongside that. Also, as I said at the tax conference, devolution of Welsh rates of income tax itself is a fairly new thing. We've only been collecting it for a couple of years. I think that letting it bed in whilst also exploring what the future looks like would be the sensible way forward, and there's a role for the commission to look at that.

A point of order arising from questions—Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Presiding Officer, for accepting this. The Minister, in providing a very good and full answer to my earlier question, referred to another Member, Cefin Campbell, in terms of delivering an executive role within the Government. We all understand the co-operation agreement, and as Members will know, I fully support the co-operation agreement. However, Members in this Chamber have no opportunity to scrutinise the Members of Plaid Cymru who form a part of this, and no opportunity to understand the role that is played. Our opportunity to provide the scrutiny of the agreement and the policies derived from that agreement is therefore limited. I'd like to ask you, Presiding Officer, whether you can take a review of this situation, because we're going to be marking a year of the co-operation agreement this week, to ensure that Members on all sides of this Chamber are able to scrutinise all aspects of the Government's work.

I'll consider the point that's been raised by the Member. The Minister, of course, is here to be scrutinised on all matters within her portfolio, which includes the operation of the co-operation agreement, but I'll give some further consideration to the points that the Member has made in light of the fact that it is a year of operation of the co-operation agreement. We do know, of course, that it is the subject of scrutiny as well in the First Minister's scrutiny committee next week. So, it's an opportune time to be reflecting on these matters. Thank you to the Minister for her scrutiny this afternoon.

2. Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd

The next item is questions to the Minister for rural affairs and north Wales. The first question is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

A Viable Future For Farming

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 1. How is the Government securing a viable future for farming? OQ58785

Lesley Griffiths AC: The Agriculture (Wales) Bill establishes four sustainable land management objectives as the legislative framework for future agricultural policy. The proposed sustainable farming scheme includes actions that will help farmers make best use of their resources and improve the resilience of their farms and businesses.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that answer.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I support efforts to establish a set of actions for all farmers in Wales in return for annual universal baseline payments that will promote biodiversity and boost the environment in our country. I do, however, share the concerns of farming unions that tenant farmers or those with common land rights, similar to one I visited within my region, will find it difficult to meet the scheme's requirements. How will you ensure that your universal principles for the sustainable farming scheme will include and protect the kinds of farmers I have referenced? They are part of a long tradition in rural Wales and in the Valleys, which I represent, and their future must not be threatened by unintended consequences of the scheme.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. It's really important that the sustainable farming scheme works for every farmer on every type of farm in every part of Wales. So, what we've established is half a dozen working groups to look at specific areas. Tenant farmers is one area, and common land farmers is another. Both are very important parts of the agricultural sector here in Wales. We know that common land is important for environmental benefits, for instance, such as biodiversity and water management, and for the large number of farmers that rely on it for forage too. You'll be aware that we've just come to the end of the co-design of the sustainable farming scheme. We'll now look at the responses that we've had and the discussions we've had before we go out to the final consultation. But obviously the outputs from the working groups that I've just mentioned will be mixed in with all the responses that we've had to the co-design output, along with ongoing policy development.

James Evans MS: Minister, ensuring our farmers have a viable future is very important, but one sector in particular that is facing huge pressure is our poultry industry, as they are managing avian influenza and a massive rise in energy costs. Can you please outline what steps the Welsh Government is taking to support our poultry farmers to make sure that they have a sustainable, viable future in the poultry industry here in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Obviously, we've seen an unprecedented series of outbreaks of avian influenza. We've had no respite at all over the summer, when we usually do see no outbreaks at all. We've just had it constantly over the last three years. We start counting the new outbreaks from 1 October of each year, and since 1 October 2022, we've already had three outbreaks here in Wales, so, it's a really difficult time for our poultry producers at the moment, particularly, because we know that many farmers have diversified into poultry farming. It's really important that we look at this across the UK. Next Monday, I'll be having my regular inter-ministerial group meeting with my counterparts from across the UK. I've asked for this to be an agenda item, because, clearly, we need to work as four nations to support our poultry farmers.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Can I draw your attention to the register of interests and the multiple organisations that I belong to that have an interest within this area, including the British Veterinary Association, Ramblers Cymru and others? But could I just commend the Minister on how she is trying to bring forward a future for sustainable farming within Wales that balances what sometimes appear to be competing interests, but actually are not competing interests?
Could she tell me how, within the agriculture Bill—and Llyr and I welcomed the opportunity to be in part of that Bill the other day, taking evidence from the Minister—but also in the future sustainable farming proposals as well, how she will make sure that we have that livelihood for farmers and landowners going forward, particularly because of the impact on Welsh language and culture, but small and medium-scale farms? But also, how do we actually expand and augment those wider public benefits that she's talked about, like flood alleviation, like carbon sequestration, but also, Minister, access to the land, biodiversity—how do we square those all off? This is complicated, but it has to be done because I think this is a one-off opportunity to get it right.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Yes, thank you. I do think it is a one-off opportunity and it's the first time, obviously, that we've been able to have this Wales-specific policy, and it's really important that it works for our farmers here in Wales and for ensuring that we keep farmers on the land and that we protect the fantastic landscapes that we have here in Wales.
You'll be aware that the agriculture Wales Bill has those four objectives, and you mentioned a couple of the objectives, particularly around culture, environmental, social and economic outcomes. I said in my earlier answer that it's really important that that scheme is accessible to everybody. Now, I believe that, at the current time, there are lots of those environmental outcomes being produced by our farmers that they're not being rewarded for. So, I think it's really important that we try and incentivise our farmers to be part of the scheme. I certainly would like to see more farmers participating in the scheme than who currently participate in the basic payments scheme, for instance. So, we've got parallel working now with the agriculture Wales Bill and the sustainable farming scheme. But that quality water and soil, and the protection of our habitats that farmers currently undertake but don't get rewarded for will certainly be part of that sustainable farming scheme.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. I wanted to follow up on Peredur's question, particularly around farmers who farm on common land. On Monday, we were at the winter fair—many of us were there—and we met farmers, Gary Williams from Carmarthenshire, and Guto Davies from Clwyd, both of whom farm on common land. It was really interesting to hear some of the challenges that they face, which you'll, no doubt, be aware of, particularly the concerns that Peredur has mentioned: the ability of farmers on common land to access the sustainable farming scheme and deliver against some of the elements of the scheme that may not even be possible for some of those. We know that it's critical for farmers with common land rights, for whom the basic payment scheme and Glastir is central to farm incomes—that they are able to access and participate in the SFS. We know that some 65 per cent of common land is within Glastir and more than 3,000 farm businesses declared common land for the purpose of claiming BPS in 2021. Could I just ask you to expand a little bit more on your commitment to ensure that the scheme is sensitive to the needs of farmers on common land? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, and as I said in my earlier answer, we are setting up a common land working group and what I want that working group to do is explore what specific support and advice may be needed, as well as what flexibility we may need to offer to account for the complexities that are posed by common land.
As you'll be aware, within the sustainable farming scheme outline proposals, we have three tiers: we have the universal, the optional and the collaborative tiers. And, certainly, in my discussions that I've had with common land farmers, I think it's fair to say that the universal and the optional actions, as are currently described in the outline document, don't apply to common land in the same way that they do to other farms. So it could be that we'll need to have a focus on the collaborative level for our common land farmers. You know, common land is very unique, and therefore I think it needs a much more tailored approach.

Animal Welfare Plan

Joyce Watson AC: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on the implementation of the animal welfare plan for Wales? OQ58798

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Progress has been made across all four of our animal welfare commitments, and ongoing work is on schedule. Wider work has progressed on animal welfare policy, and the local authority enforcement project is driving significant change, and the 12-week consultation on closed-circuit television in slaughterhouses was launched on 14 November.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, Minister. A year into the five-year process, as you say, there has been good progress, most notably the consultation on mandatory CCTV in abattoirs. But in terms of priorities, can I ask where the use of breeding cages for game birds sits? I know the plan includes a commitment to examine the evidence around their use, but with the new shooting season under way, the use of breeding cages and how that sits with our commitment to animal welfare is quite rightly in focus. So, can you provide any update on that particular issue?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you referred to, we have our priorities for animal welfare in the plan. It is a five-year programme, and we are just having the one-year look back at what we've been able to achieve in that first year. It's not possible to provide you with a timeline for the consultation on any changes to the welfare legislation, or the code of practice, in relation to the welfare of game birds. And, certainly, you'll appreciate that, within the office of the chief veterinary officer, a significant number of officials are having to deal with the avian influenza outbreak, and it has taken a bit of a priority, as you can imagine. But certainly, we will now, as we go into the second year of the plan, look at what we can do, and I know that this is an area of great importance—I can tell by my postbag how significant this is.

Andrew RT Davies AC: One of the legacies we know about COVID is that, obviously, a lot of people during the COVID pandemic took on a pet, and the responsibility of a pet. The welfare implications, as we've come out of COVID, have indicated that many pets have been left abandoned, and the charitable sector that tends to pick them up and look after them and try and rehome them has come under huge amounts of pressure. Has the Government done any analysis of the extra work that charities working in Wales have had to face because of this legacy, and, if the Government have done an analysis, are you minded to work financially and other co-operatively with them, to support this extra burden that they face, so that these animals can be rehomed in a sensible way, rather than, ultimately and tragically, end up being put down?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You're quite right—we certainly did see a significant increase in the number of households that obtained a pet during the COVID-19 pandemic. And as we came out of the pandemic, and perhaps people returned to work who were previously working at home when they got their pet, we did see a number of animals looking to be rehoused. I think the cost-of-living crisis now is also, unfortunately, increasing the number of pets that are looking to be rehoused. I'm not aware of any significant analysis. I know that the office of the chief veterinary officer has worked with third sector organisations, to see what we can do to assist them. I have to be perfectly honest—I don't think my budget would allow any further funding to be able to be given to the third sector, but, obviously, if that could be considered in the future, I'd be very happy to do that.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, three weeks ago, you and I debated the value of a Wales-wide bird flu housing Order. In your response to my appeal for the pre-emptive policy, you stated that the evidence that all CVOs in the UK had to hand did not warrant such a response here in Wales. Fast-forward to last week, and, following pressure from both the industry, myself, and with new evidence, you reviewed Welsh Government regulations, and, from Friday, Wales will have its housing Order. As I'm sure that you know, however, this isn't the only challenge facing our poultry industry. The rise in overhead costs, and the supermarkets' unwillingness to pay producers a fair price for their eggs, has left the industry unable to keep pace with production costs, prompting some producers to either quit the industry or cut their flocks.
When the dairy industry faced similar problems with their milk contracts, the Welsh Government worked to consult and introduce fairer dairy contracts. So, given this—and previously, you mentioned that you have an inter-governmental meeting on Monday—can I ask that the Welsh Government commits to a poultry contract feasibility investigation to find out why our farmers are getting a raw deal for their produce?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I can assure the Member that it wasn't because of pressure from him that I made the decision for mandatory housing last Friday; it was purely on the scientific evidence and the advice I sought from the chief veterinary officer. Obviously, all four chief veterinary officers received the same advice. How it's interpreted, then, by Ministers is obviously a matter for each Minister. Three weeks is a long time in an outbreak like this, and it became clear to me, probably in the middle of last week—probably about a week ago— that the advice was changing. And that's why we brought in the mandatory housing of birds—. Well, it will be coming in this Friday, but I announced it last Friday, along with stringent biosecurity requirements, because biosecurity is incredibly important, as we try and do all that we can in the face of this very unprecendented avian influenza outbreak.
I quite agree with what you're saying in relation to it not being the only thing that is concerning the poultry sector. The price that they're getting—. And, certainly, I had some very interesting discussions with farmers at the winter fair on Monday, and I mentioned in an earlier answer that we have seen a lot of farmers diversify into poultry over the last few years.Certainly, it is a discussion, as I've said, that is on the agenda for the inter-ministerial group on Monday. Unfortunately, I understand that the Secretary of State won't be at the meeting, which I think is unfortunate, but, certainly, I will raise what we can do across the UK at that meeting. And, if it looks as if we have to do something on our own, we can certainly look at what we can do. And I appreciate what you were saying about dairy, and it could be that we will need to see what, if anything, we can do to help our poultry producers.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister. I appreciate the response, and given your meeting on Monday, it would be welcome to hear from you whether declaring an exceptional market condition is something that is discussed at that meeting on Monday. Because, anecdotally, at the Hybu Cig Cymru breakfast on Monday at the winter fair, there weren't any eggs at the breakfast, showing just how much difficulty the industry is facing in these unprecedented times.
Moving on to a different topic, I was recently given sight of a Welsh Government freedom of information response to a request that sought information on the amount of carbon sequestered through agricultural land use in Wales. The Welsh Government's response: well, you don't hold this data, and this is concerning. Most of Wales's agricultural land is grassland—land use that, studies have shown can sequester carbon as equally as trees, or even better in some certain climates. The farming industry knows the role that it must play in protecting and improving our environment and biodiversity, but for the Welsh Government to introduce such sweeping policy changes without the knowledge of the good that the industry is already doing is somewhat of a kick in the teeth to Wales's hard-working farmers.
So, what data are you using to underpin the agricultural Bill and the sustainable farming scheme, if you don't know what carbon is currently being sequestered in Welsh agricultural land?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Before I answer your second question, I'll just go back to the first question about the inter-ministerial group. I always publish a written statement following the IMG, so the Member will be updated in relation to that.
You will have heard me say in an earlier answer that we know that farmers are already providing so many environmental outcomes—and, of course, that includes carbon storage on their farms—and not being rewarded for it. And the sustainable farming scheme is a way of ensuring that they are rewarded for it in the way that the basic payment scheme doesn't. I think it's fair to say that, in general, most farmers would say that the common agricultural policy hasn't rewarded them in the way that it could have done, but it is really important that we get this scheme right now, so that things like carbon storage are rewarded in a way that we believe it should be, to help us. And you're absolutely right—the agricultural sector, of course, recognises the significant role that it has to play in us reaching net zero. And, in fact, the National Farmers Union Cymru, for instance, have got very ambitious targets to enable them to help us with that. So, we don't keep data on absolutely everything, but of course we know that if you look at peatland or, as you say, farms in general across the country, the amount of carbon storage is significant. I remember—it was probably before you came to the Senedd, and I'm trying to think which consultation it was I launched—a farmer was very proud to tell me at the farm where we did the launch just how much carbon was being stored per acre in his farm.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Minister. It is a bit concerning that, if you don't have that baseline information available, how do we know that these projects that the sustainable farming scheme is going to introduce are actually benefiting carbon sequestration, because we don't have the baseline figure to work from? So, while there are carbon calculators out there that every farm can do, you and I both know that there are varying carbon calculators out there that offer very different calculations. So, I'd be really keen to stress that there needs to be a baseline figure here, where we know that a sustainable farming scheme introduced is delivering the benefits that we're looking to achieve within the agricultural sector.
But, sticking with the agriculture Bill and the sustainable farming scheme, I want to draw your attention, as Peredur did earlier, to tenant and common land farmers. Having recently met with the representatives and attended NFU Cymru's policy launch for common land at the winter fair, coupled with the strong evidence from both tenant farmers and common land farmers presented at my committee, I'm left with some serious concerns about the lack of consideration given to these farm types by Welsh Government policy. A tenancy working group was formed, although its first meeting was only a couple of weeks ago, and last month I asked you for a specific group for common land farmers, but I've heard no progress on this—two examples of how both are seen as somewhat of an afterthought by the Welsh Government. Minister, both tenant and common land farmers make up a big proportion of active farmers here in Wales. If the agriculture Bill and the sustainable farming scheme fail to work for them, it will have huge consequences on the viability of Welsh family farms across our country. So, what guarantees can you give that neither tenant farmers nor common land farmers will be negatively impacted by the introduction of the agriculture Bill and specifically the sustainable farming scheme? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Again, just to go back to your second question, I think the number of carbon calculators that are available is an issue for us as we try and ascertain just how much carbon is being stored. One of the things I've asked officials to look at is if we can just use one, so everybody knows what they're looking at and how to use it. Certainly, I think we can get it down to single figures, and very early single figures—three, maybe, at the absolute maximum. Certainly, that is something that farmers are asking me to do, because I think it will help them.
In relation to your final question, I'm not sure if you heard me say we are having a common land working group. That is currently being established. It will be meeting before Christmas, and you're quite right that the tenant working group has already met. I think it's really important now we let these working groups do their work now we've come to the end of the second stage of the co-design, ahead of that final consultation at the end of next year. Both parts of the agricultural sector you refer to—tenants and common land—are very important to the agricultural sector here in Wales. The Bill contains modifications to the Agricultural Tenancies Act 1995, for instance, so it is really important that we hear from both of those parts of the sector, and both of those working groups will be meeting regularly and reporting back to me.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. It was good to see you in the winter fair on Monday, and it was a great opportunity to catch up with some of the farmers and listen to their concerns. You'll know as well as others that one of the most important things that did come up was the avian flu. That's a huge concern, and we clearly welcome the mandatory housing measures that you've brought in, or will be brought in this Friday. Having said that, businesses will still face crippling disruption to their activities, namely those dealing with eggs and poultry meats, and there are concerns from the sector, and poultry farmers in my own constituency, that the problem of severe market disruption caused by the flu in poultry meat and egg sectors is being compounded by the massive inflation in feed and energy costs. Now, in your answer earlier, you said that you will be raising with UK Government this issue and asking what they can do and you will be exploring things that you could do alone as a Welsh Government. But, of course, the Welsh Government could use the powers available under Schedule 5, Part 2 of the Agriculture Act 2020 to declare exceptional market conditions, which would enable the provision of support to egg and poultry producers. So, does the Minister agree that the Welsh Government should use these powers, and, if so, will you use them?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, again, it is something that we could do. We don't know how long this is going to last for. It could be that we will need to do it sooner rather than later, for instance, but I would prefer to have that discussion, because we haven't really had that ministerial discussion across the UK, because obviously it's very integrated across the UK. So, I would rather hear from the UK Government first to see if they are offering any support. As you know, we've been asking them to bring forward some further funding because of the significant input costs that the agricultural sector has and continues to suffer from. You will have heard that at the winter fair—I heard that there's 36 per cent inflation now on our farms. Across the board, it's 11 per cent, but on-farm inflation is significantly higher. So, I would prefer to have that discussion at a ministerial level on Monday.
My officials have been attending weekly meetings, as I say, at an official level, but my food division officials have also been having daily contact in relation to the costs. We've seen some supermarkets start to limit the number of eggs that consumers can buy. We are concerned because, as we know, if something gets in the media around that, it's very difficult then to stop that panic buying. So, I'm really pleased to see that hasn't happened. Interestingly, the same as Sam Kurtz, I did wonder at the Hybu Cig Cymru breakfast, when we didn't have eggs, if that was indeed the case. It's very obvious at the winter fair that we don't have birds there, but I thought that was a really in-your-face example of what we're suffering at the moment. So, I'd be very happy to update Members following the IMG next Monday.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for that response.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thanks for that. Okay. Moving on to fisheries, if I may, the 2012 fisheries concordat sets out how the UK's quota allocation is divided between the four administrations, and provides overarching principles on effort control and licensing. One key element covered by the concordat is the set of conditions associated with the economic link. The economic link is a fisheries licence condition. It currently applies to all UK-registered vessels over 10m in length that land more than 2 tonnes of UK quota per annum, including supertrawlers. In short, it requires them to demonstrate a real link to the economy of the UK by meeting one of the criteria set out in their vessel's economic link licence condition. These criteria can be summarised as landing at least 50 per cent of the vessel's quota into the UK, employing a crew of whom at least 50 per cent reside in the UK, or making at least 50 per cent of normal operating expenditure into UK coastal areas. As the Minister will know, the economic link is a devolved issue. Economic link licence conditions are present in current Welsh Government fishing licence documents for commercial fishing vessels. However, as the majority of the Welsh fleet is made up of small vessels under 10m, it's hard to know how many, if any, vessels in the Welsh fishing fleet are subject to an economic link licence condition. So, given the presence of environmentally damaging supertrawlers in Welsh waters, as well as other boats larger than 10m, can I ask the Minister to what extent the economic link conditions apply to boats that fish in Welsh waters? In other words, how many vessels are subject to the economic link conditions and what economic benefits does Wales get from this arrangement?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. That took me back to December council fishing negotiations in a previous life. Certainly, I haven't got those figures to hand, but I'd be very happy to write to the Member in relation to that. I know officials are having discussions at the moment around the number of licences that have been allocated since we left the European Union, going forward, but I'd be very happy to write to the Member about the economic link.

The Mersey Dee Alliance

Ken Skates AC: 3. What consideration has the Cabinet standing committee for north Wales given to cross-border collaboration through the Mersey Dee Alliance? OQ58772

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Cabinet sub-committee for north Wales has discussed broad policy areas that impact on the Mersey Dee Alliance area, including transport, skills and COVID recovery. The Welsh Government is a founder member, and we value the partnership of organisations working to support the cross-border economy.

Ken Skates AC: Minister, that's great to hear because, of course, public transport is a key issue—probably the most important issue—to consider on a cross-border basis in the Mersey Dee area. Last weekend, Carolyn Thomas and I went to Chester. We met with key figures from across the border in England, including metro mayors Steve Rotherham and Andy Burnham, as well as Samantha Dixon, and we of course spoke about the need to improve public transport, particularly bus services on a cross-border basis. As north Wales Minister, would you agree to convene a north Wales and north-west of England summit to focus on transport and the potential economic benefits of working together across the border in this area, which has such a strong contribution to make to the Welsh and UK economy? And would you agree that it’s absolutely vital that we consider important transport infrastructure improvements, including that of the Wrexham-Bidston main railway line?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I would certainly agree with you on that final point and I know it’s really important that we have partners working together in relation to the Wrexham-Bidston line, and that includes, obviously, Transport for Wales, Merseyrail, and the Welsh Government itself.
In relation to a summit, probably at the current time, while the north Wales transport commission is having a look at what it needs to do following the publication of its progress report—. I met with the chair of the commission, and currently he is looking to talk to stakeholders around cross-border transport, because it is, as you say, so important for north Wales, and I would encourage stakeholders from the cross-border region to certainly engage with the commission.
You will know very well, as you, obviously, chaired the sub-committee previously, that it’s really important that, at that committee, we invite people to come in from outside to give presentations, so I have asked officials to ask both Steve Rotherham and Andy Burnham to come along to the committee. I think it’s very important that ministerial colleagues hear about the links we have with the north-west of England and how important they are for north Wales, and particularly north-east Wales, and, obviously, the local authority leaders also attend that committee. So, I’m hoping, either at the next committee meeting or the one after that, that both the mayors will be able to come along to that.

Sam Rowlands MS: Can I join Ken Skates in calling for and highlighting the opportunities there are in terms of that cross-border collaboration in north-east Wales and north-west England, especially on transport there, where we see around 200,000 people cross that border on a daily basis? But, indeed, there are other opportunities, which I think the Mersey Dee Alliance, as a great example, is looking to exploit, which is the opportunity of working across UK Government, Welsh Government and local authorities across the border, and one of those is—. I had the privilege of attending a meeting with HyNet on Monday of this week, who were sharing with me again their intended project not just to make sure hydrogen is available in the region, but also in removing carbon from many of the industries in the region as well, and the investment of billions of pounds in the area. So, I wonder, Minister, what assessment you’ve made of the role the standing committee can play in working with the Mersey Dee Alliance to ensure that projects like HyNet and other positive environmentally friendly projects like that will make a difference in the region.

Lesley Griffiths AC: As I say, it’s really important that all partners work together and I think you’re right about the HyNet project. Again, I’ve met with both Steve Rotherham and Andy Burnham to discuss the role that HyNet and the hydrogen project can play across border, and they’re both very keen to get involved. So, the committee can bring all these partners together, and you heard me say in my earlier answer to Ken Skates that it’s really important that we get people from outside to be able to help us with our deliberations, particularly as the local authority leaders from right across north Wales—north-west and north-east—are at that meeting, to hear about how closely we can work together, because, as you said, a significant number of people cross that border every day.

Community Engagement with Farming

John Griffiths AC: 4. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's policies to encourage community engagement with farming? OQ58787

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government is committed to improving understanding of how food is produced, in addition to providing social benefits through community-supported growing. Support is available for community-supported agriculture through the Welsh Government rural communities rural development programme, under the co-operation and supply chain development scheme and LEADER.

John Griffiths AC: Thanks for that, Minister. It is, I think, obviously important that the wider community understands and feels connected with farming if we're going to have the sort of popular support for our policies and the farming sector that we would like to see. It's about better understanding how our farms work, what happens on the land and how our food is produced. I think Ramblers Cymru are doing a good job, Minister, to connect some communities with landowners/farmers through their initiative Paths to Wellbeing, which, working in partnership with landowners, designs paths and then provides the community with training and tools to improve nature and improve access to that land. I know that Maindee in my constituency of Newport East is one area that's involved in this project, Minister, and I wonder if you would see the sustainable farming scheme as a way to continue and strengthen this work, which I believe is very important, so that as well as, perhaps, connecting the educational sector to farms and farming, we do it on that wider community basis that Ramblers Cymru are taking forward.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think you raise a really important point, and I absolutely see the sustainable farming scheme in the future being incorporated into this area. As I mentioned in my tabled answer to you, we've got many schemes that we support, and it's really good to hear about the project in your own constituency.
I've been really pleased to see how many farmers want to engage with schools, and I've been on many farm visits where there are schoolchildren present, learning about how food is produced, and just what the agricultural sector does, because, of course, particularly if you're from an urban area, perhaps you don't have that knowledge, and it's great to see the engagement from our farmers. When I was at the winter fair on Monday—and I think this is really important, going back to what I was saying about schoolchildren—I was really pleased to be able to support, both with funding and other resources, a booklet that can go out to children about farm safety, because I think, again, farms can be very dangerous places, and it's really important that our children, ahead of going on a farm, understand the dangers that are there.
We've also got the community food strategy, which is another way, I think, we can engage with the community, and I'm currently having discussions with Cefin Campbell, as the designated Member as part of the co-operation agreement, in relation to the community food strategy. Food is the common factor, but there are so many societal benefits that can come out of this type of work as well.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, the global beef industry has enjoyed a series of anti-meat campaigns recently from various sources, making serious claims about environmental damage, animal welfare problems and health issues. Beef farming in Wales has suffered as a result. I appreciate my colleague's question to you earlier, but one of the ways to counter this misinformation would be to, obviously, as you mentioned and he mentioned, encourage school pupils to visit farms. I would like to focus a bit more on children from special needs schools, as well as those people from more of a vulnerable background, to be able to go and see where their food comes from, and they can learn about sustainability and the importance of farming to the environment. So, I'd like to know, Minister, what discussions have you had with farming organisations, the Minister for education and other potential Ministers in the Welsh Parliament, to encourage more young people, people from disabled backgrounds, ethnic minorities, as well as those from, perhaps, disadvantaged backgrounds to be able to go and see where their food actually comes from. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I've had quite a few discussions, certainly during the summer shows. Cows on Tour had a fantastic corner in the Pembrokeshire show, where they had a constant stream of schoolchildren attending, and it was the story of the potato, how the potato started, going right through the life of a potato and how it ended up on our plates in the various forms it can be. Those sorts of things are really important. I wouldn't say it was about specific groups of children; it was about children and young people in general, but I was very happy to support that. I've had discussions with the Minister for education in relation to that, and, as I say, with farmers themselves, because it's really interesting to see so many farmers encouraging visits from their local schools. I think it's something I would be very happy to continue to support in any way I can.

Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill

Luke Fletcher AS: 5. What progress has the Minister made regarding collaboration with the UK Government on the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill? OQ58791

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Welsh Government is continuing to work with the UK Government on the animal welfare Bill, which makes provisions to deliver important reforms for the welfare of kept animals. Legislative consent memoranda for all the clauses contained in the Bill have been laid in the Senedd.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch am yr ymateb, Gweinidog. I'm sure the Minister is expecting a question around greyhounds here, but not on this occasion. I would like to highlight and express that I share the concerns of RSPCA Cymru who have called on the UK Government to prioritise the completion of the Bill, so that the cruel practices it aims to address become a thing of the past. However, there are worries that the UK Government's commitment to the Bill is on the verge of collapse.
Now, back in November 2020, the Welsh Government published their response to an expert task and finish group by the Wales animal health and welfare framework group. The review had made 55 recommendations, covering issues such as improved training for local authorities, but most of these have not yet been taken on by Welsh Government. So, in the absence of any visible progress on the part of the UK Government, are there any intentions from the Welsh Government to improve Wales's regulations, to strengthen legislation around unlicensed breeding and puppy farming, as well as the import and export of pets from Wales?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'll refer to the two things separately. So, from a Welsh Government point of view, obviously, our priority is for animal welfare, as set out in the animal welfare plan for Wales. And there are things we can do on our own, but also, within that plan, it includes collaboration with the UK Government and other devolved Governments where there are clear benefits to us doing that.
In relation to the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill, I share your concern about the lack of progress that we've seen. The disruption we've seen and the complete chaos in the UK Government hasn't helped, but we are hopeful. I'm going to try and get some more definitive information from this at the IMG. But, certainly, officials who've met with their DEFRA counterparts are told that, hopefully, there will be a Report Stage date announced soon, because we have seen the Bill stall time and time again. But we are keeping a very close eye on it and, again, I'll be happy to update Members when we have further information, because, clearly, it's a UK Government Bill and they set out the parliamentary timeline.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, this Bill has been supported by the RSPCA, Dogs Trust and the British Veterinary Association, all recognising that the legislation will improve the standards of welfare, not least by becoming the first country in Europe to ban the live export of animals for slaughtering and fattening. Does the Minister accept that this achievement, along with those measures to crack down on the import of puppies, is a huge step in delivering those high standards we all want to see?

Lesley Griffiths AC: It's a very important piece of legislation on several levels. You referred to two of them, but the dog attacks on livestock part of the legislation, for me, is very important. The current legislation is absolutely not fit for purpose. I'm just looking in my briefing to see what year—1953 is the legislation that we're currently working to. Well, that's before I was born, so it's a long time ago and clearly needs updating to make sure it's fit for purpose. Some of the conversations I've had with the wildlife and rural crime commissioner is that we really need to make sure our legislation is fit for purpose and, clearly, a lot of that is down to the responsibility of the UK Government. So, I'm very happy to keep working with the UK Government. You mentioned prohibiting the export of live cattle, which, again, I think, from an animal welfare point of view, is really important.

The LEADER Scheme

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 6. Will the Minister make a statement on the Government's long-term plans to follow the LEADER scheme? OQ58794

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As a result of the UK Government not honouring its commitment to replace EU funding in full, Wales is around £1.1 billion worse off. However, it is my intention to continue to support community-led local development thorough our framework for regional investment in Wales.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response. I too share your frustration that the UK Government has gone back on its word in terms of expenditure post Brexit. The Minister will be aware of the excellent work that's been done under the LEADER programme. I'm particularly grateful to Menter Môn in my constituency for the innovative work that they've led in drawing down funds and starting projects through LEADER. They've written to the Minister—and the Minister will be aware of that—on behalf of the local action groups, raising concerns about the fact that we have no assurance as to what will happen after 2023. Plans are being developed by DEFRA for England, for some sort of rural levelling-up programme in England. There's a suggestion that the shared prosperity fund could be used, but that offers no sort of consistency of expenditure nor an ability to be strategic in the longer term. So, does the Minister agree with me that we need assurances now that these plans, and the structures that have enabled the LEADER programme to develop, will not come to an end quickly after 2023?

Lesley Griffiths AC: You're quite right, I have had a letter and I have responded to Menter Môn in relation to their concerns around a replacement for LEADER in Wales. Obviously, I'm unable to make any commitments ahead of the draft budget, but my officials do continue to work with stakeholders to see how we can continue to support rural communities in the future. There's been excellent work delivered through the LEADER programme over a long period of time. I've seen for myself many examples of the innovative projects that have been delivered in many rural communities, and, as I say, it is our intention to continue to explicitly support that community-led local development.

Avian Flu

Peter Fox AS: 7. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the current avian flu outbreak on egg producers in Wales? OQ58789

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Since 1 October 2022, there have been three confirmed outbreaks of avian influenza in Wales. The epidemiological start of the current outbreak was in October 2021, and we saw cases continue to be confirmed throughout the summer for the first time. We continue to monitor the disease situation on a daily basis.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for that response. The poultry sector in Wales and beyond is currently experiencing a range of challenges, with the effects of the avian flu outbreak combining with increases in input costs to create a difficult outlook for producers. Constrained supply, partly as a result of avian flu measures and higher demand at this time of year, has meant that egg availability is lower than normal. This has resulted in a number of supermarkets limiting the sale of eggs to consumers. Farming unions have also raised concerns that some retailers have taken the disappointing decision to import barn eggs, which are not produced to the same high standards as they are here in Wales.
Minister, I know you'll agree with me that these are worrying times for poultry producers, who are doing their very best to maintain wider confidence in the sector. So, how is the Government working with producers to help maintain supply as much as possible, as well as working with retailers to ensure that producers get a fair price for their eggs? How would you respond to calls from the farming unions for you to consider using powers under the UK Agriculture Act 2020 to investigate whether a declaration of exceptional market conditions should be made, so that the Government can support producers to cope with any financial losses as a consequence of the measures in place to deal with avian flu?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You will have heard me say in an earlier answer that, obviously, that is something that we can consider. I would prefer to wait until I've had my ministerial meeting on Monday to see what other views are across the UK and whether there's anything that we can do collectively together. I think you're right; these are challenging times for everybody, and I absolutely accept that there are a range of other pressures on our egg producers at the current time.
Certainly, the information I'm getting—again, I mentioned earlier that we're in daily contact in relation to this issue—is that supply is tight but it is holding up as well, and I know that some supermarkets have introduced low-key limits on how many eggs a customer can buy, for instance. But, we do feel that the biggest risk to supply is the media driving panic buying, so we're really keen to avoid that.

Food Processing Capacity

Andrew RT Davies AC: 8. Minister, could you give us an update on the ability to increase processing capacity here in Wales? OQ58792

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government is building on its strong track record of investment in the food industry, as described in my strategic vision published last year. This month, I launched £40 million of investment through the new food business accelerator scheme to support capital investment in processing equipment and infrastructure.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Minister. One thing that has always perplexed me is driving along the M4 and seeing tanker after tanker exporting milk out of the west Wales milk field. I appreciate it's not the Government's decision that that happens—it has been a commercial decision that dairies over many decades have taken—but, surely, through any processing capacity that the Welsh Government is looking at, it should be a priority to try to get more processing capacity into that substantial—it is substantial—milk field, one of the biggest in western Europe, so that value can be added to the product and, yes, then transported out of Wales to achieve the full value on the shelves of the UK and beyond. So, with the strategies that you've put in place, how confident are you that by the end of this Senedd term in 2026 we might see an increase in processing capacity in the west Wales milk field to add that value and keep that money here in Wales and at the farm gate?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think you raise a really important point, and we saw what happened in north-east Wales when we lost a milk processor—the difficulties that that caused. So, I'm really keen to see more milk processing taking place here in Wales and we're not seeing those tankers, as you say, cross the border. It is a commercial decision, but what I think Government's role is is to make sure that we have schemes that are easily accessible for people who are looking to either expand their premises or look for funding for further capital investment. I mentioned the food business accelerator scheme—it only opened I think it was 17 November—we've put £40 million there. It will stay open as long as it needs to for that £40 million to be used up, so I do hope it will be fully utilised in the way you suggest.

I thank the Minister.

3. Topical Questions

There are no topical questions under item 3.

4. 90-second Statements

Item 4 is next, therefore, the 90-second statements, and the first statement is from Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The Clink restaurant in Cardiff has operated for over 10 years from a building attached to Cardiff prison. It's one of four restaurants operated by The Clink Charity—the others are in Brixton, High Down and Styal prisons. The Cardiff teaching kitchen and restaurant is situated outside the prison walls, so it can only recruit category C prisoners who are not deemed at risk of absconding. There are no category C prisoners in Cardiff prison, so all the learners are recruited from Prescoed prison in Usk.
It's put hope on the menu for nearly 3,000 learners, who've graduated with City and Guilds qualifications in food service, food safety, food preparation and cookery. Most Clink graduates go on to full-time employment, and, unsurprisingly, they are two thirds less likely to reoffend and end up back in prison than other prisoners. It really is a rehabilitation programme that works.
Pre COVID, Cardiff Clink achieved the very highest accolade for its food, alongside famous foodie destinations like Le Manoir aux Quat'Saisons. What's not to like about this success story? Last week, I, sadly, attended a farewell dinner at The Clink. It was both a celebration and a wake. I met graduates, trainers and employers who'd provided training places and employment. HMP Cardiff needs to explain why they decided not to renew the lease of this very successful charity. The Clink will close on 16 December.

Vikki Howells AC: On 25 November, The Mousetrap celebrated the seventieth anniversary of its opening in the Ambassador Theatre. For many years, Agatha Christie's theatrical masterpiece has held the record of the longest-running stage play in the world. It has been performed just under 29,000 times on the London stage and seen by over 10 million people. It led the West End out of lockdown; the first show to reopen now in its current home of St Martin's Theatre.
Royalties from the play were given by the queen of crime to her grandson, Mathew Pritchard. In 1995, Mathew set up the Colwinston charitable trust to support arts groups largely funded by those royalties. Each year, the trust distributes hundreds of thousands of pounds, with arts organisations in Wales receiving around 80 per cent of all grants. The trust has supported the National Museum of Wales, the National Eisteddfod, the Welsh National Opera, the Royal College of Music and Drama, and Welsh universities. It has also supported more local organisations and projects, particularly those benefitting children and young people or linked to improving access to the arts, like Valleys Kids. Seventieth birthday celebrations for The Mousetrap will include its Broadway debut and a tour around the UK, including performances in Cardiff and Swansea, and also a legacy of continuing to support the arts in Wales. Just remember to keep the secret locked.

Heledd Fychan AS: With players, staff and supporters of the Cymru men's football team preparing to leave Qatar to return home, I wanted to take the opportunity today to convey our thanks to all of them, together with the Red Wall who supported them here in Wales. Although our journey has come to an end and there is a natural sense of disappointment, there is also so much to celebrate, and that's what I'd like to reflect on today.
Reaching the world cup for the first time since 1958 was a tremendous achievement, and a source of pride for the entire nation. This is the first time ever for a great many of us to see our national team in the tournament, and the team has managed to motivate fans of all ages and show the world that this small country that we love is 'still here'— ‘yma o hyd’.
At such a difficult time for so many people following COVID and now the cost-of-living crisis, hasn't it been great to have the chance to celebrate our nation and to see a sea of red and bucket hats across the nation and on our tv screens? I'm sure that I wasn't the only one to have tears in my eyes while watching our first game against the USA on tv and hearing our anthem echoing through the stadium and realising that it was the first time for it ever to have been heard by so many people.
And a special tribute must be paid to the way in which the Football Association of Wales, led by Noel Mooney and also Ian Gwyn Hughes, have ensured that Wales, not just the association, has benefited from this incredible opportunity, building on the great work that the association has been doing for years, seeking to modernise and collaborate with the Red Wall, and ensuring that football belongs to everyone in Wales, and that the word ‘Cymru’ also belongs to everyone, whether you speak Welsh or not.
The pinnacle of this work was seeing our history, our language and our values at the heart of the whole world cup campaign. I will never forget being in Cardiff City stadium when we secured our place in the world cup and seeing the whole team, with Dafydd Iwan in their midst, singing 'Yma o Hyd', and even a few members of the Tory party singing 'Er gwaetha’r hen Fagi a’i chriw'—don't worry, I won’t name you today. As Dafydd Iwan said when he was interviewed in Qatar, regardless of the result in the tournament, without a doubt, Wales has won. And as Gareth Bale said when he was interviewed last night, looking ahead to the Euros:

Heledd Fychan AS: 'We go again in March.'

Heledd Fychan AS: They can be sure, as can the women's team, that, whatever the results are in the future, the Red Wall will be there to celebrate and support as it has throughout this journey. Together stronger. Thank you, team Cymru. [Applause.]

And in the spirit of 90-minute football matches never being within the 90 minutes these days, I allowed that 90-second statement to go beyond the 90 seconds. [Laughter.] But that's not to be repeated.

I thank Heledd for reflecting all of our feelings as we consider our football team and supporters and everyone who's represented Wales so superbly.

5. Debate on the Finance Committee Report—'Post-EU funding arrangements'

Item 5 is a debate on the Finance Committee report, 'Post-EU funding arrangements', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Motion NDM8149 Peredur Owen Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Finance Committee: Post-EU funding arrangements which was laid in the Table Office on 10 October 2022.

Motion moved.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I am delighted to move the motion and to open this debate on the Finance Committee’s report on post-EU funding arrangements. The issue of EU replacement funding has a particular salience in Wales, given that it was the largest recipient of EU funding relative to its population of the UK nations. As a committee, we considered this as a priority, and our inquiry took a deep-dive into replacement EU funding, with the aim of clarifying the level of funding received here in Wales.
As part of this, we considered the UK Government’s funding schemes, namely the community renewal fund, the levelling-up fund and the shared prosperity fund. Given the cross-cutting nature of our inquiry, we were pleased to hear from the Welsh and UK Governments, and I would like to place on record my thanks to the Ministers who appeared before the committee.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: The new funding arrangements established since the UK left the EU represent a seismic shift in the way that money is allocated to Wales and the role of the Welsh and UK Governments in that process. Our overriding finding was that the successful implementation of these new funds in Wales is endangered by the lack of engagement between the Welsh and UK Governments. The delivery of funding under these arrangements should not just be about sharing money across the UK; it also needs to be about the sharing of ideas and responsibilities if it is to be a truly partnership approach.
We made 20 recommendations in our report, which includes recommendations aimed at the Welsh Government and the UK Government. I am thankful to the Secretary of State for Wales and the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities for providing a written response to our recommendations. We appreciate the UK Government is not accountable to the Senedd. However, the successful delivery of EU replacement funding will require co-operation from both Governments, and therefore we are grateful the UK Government has been part of the scrutiny process. I would also like to thank the Minister for Finance and Local Government and the Minister for Economy for their joint response to our report and for accepting all the recommendations that apply to the Welsh Government.
Given the time today, I will cover our main concerns and findings. I'll start with the level of funding for Wales. When we embarked on this inquiry, a key consideration for us was how the new funding proposed for Wales compared to the funding received while the UK was a member of the EU. The Welsh Government states there is a £1.1 billion loss of replacement EU funding in Wales. The UK Government told us the shared prosperity fund will ramp up as remaining EU funds tail off. It says providing both wasn’t something that was ever promised. Substantiating these competing claims has not been possible, because it was clear the Welsh and UK Governments were not considering how the new funding proposed for Wales compares to the funding received while in the EUin the same way. Therefore, we were unable to take a view on whether Wales is due to receive more, less or the same level.
The UK Government's autumn statement adds to uncertainties regarding the future of these funds and their value. Whilst we understand it is necessary to explore the different perspectives around replacement funding during our inquiry, we spent so much time unpicking the basic principles of each Government’s argument in relation to the level of EU funding. We received evidence suggesting that funding announced to date by the UK Government is short of what Wales would have received if we had remained in the EU, albeit any future EU funding is an estimate, and therefore there is a level of uncertainty about that value.
Over the course of the inquiry, we have seen more detailed information published by both Governments, but it is unhelpful for Governments to disagree as they have, and to not promptly and fully publish the detail of their perspective. It is disappointing that the level of disagreement between the two Governments continues. The Welsh Government claims the UK autumn statement means the overall value of the SPF for the UK has been reduced by £400 million to £2.2 billion by the end of 2024-25. However, only yesterday, we received correspondence from the UK Minister for levelling up stating that this is incorrect. This is exactly the type of dispute that we believe needs to be avoided if these funds are to succeed. My predecessor has previously written to the two Governments, highlighting the importance of transparency in funding calculations. It makes our job of effective scrutiny even harder when there are disagreements like this over levels of funding.

Mike Hedges AC: Will you take an intervention? Can I say what you've heard me say a number of times? It would help if both the Welsh Government and the Westminster Government showed their workings rather than just giving us a number at the end.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Mike. We recommend that an independent body should assess both the Welsh and UK Governments' claims around the levels of future funding and how this compares to previous EU funding. We are pleased that the Welsh Government has agreed to this recommendation, but, unfortunately, we did not receive the same commitment from the UK Government. We therefore urge the Minister to pursue the issue at the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee when it next meets.
Let's move on to the UK Government acting in devolved areas. A major concern for us is the UK Government using these funds as vehicles to act in devolved areas, namely through the financial assistance powers in the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2021 and the Multiply programme. We also have sympathy with the Welsh Government that it is being bypassed in the decision-making process. The Finance Committee of the fifth Senedd has previously explored issues relating to the UK Government funding devolved areas via the internal market Act, so I will not reiterate those arguments today. However, the Multiply programme is further encroachment on an area that, as the Minister for Economy said, is 'plainly devolved'. We are disappointed with the method of allocating funds through the Multiply programme, and, given that education is devolved, we recommended that the UK Government provides flexibility to spend funds from the programme in other areas. We also acknowledge the Welsh Government’s position that the programme is too narrow in focus and led to the duplication of provision. The UK Government says that
'Multiply is intended to complement existing Welsh Government provision'
and that
'There remains the flexibility for places to adapt the delivery of Multiply in response to their local needs.'
However, we feel that this should have gone further, to allow the Welsh Government greater flexibility to spend this funding in other areas. Worryingly, we also believe this Senedd is in danger of being sidelined, and that further consideration is required, to ensure that effective parliamentary scrutiny of these and future replacement funds takes place in Wales.
Whilst the committee appreciates the attendance of the then Secretary of State and the then Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the UK Minister with responsibility for the funds refused to attend. As a committee, we have also faced similar issues in the past trying to engage with HM Treasury and their refusal to attend committee to discuss fiscal matters that have the potential to significantly impact Wales. If the UK Government insists on acting in devolved areas, scrutiny should not be done at Westminster only. These are new, significant funding arrangements that require resilient, transparent and accountable structures that reflect the constitutional realities of the UK, and this Senedd needs to consider its role in scrutinising these funds.
I’ll move on to the three specific funds that I mentioned at the start—the community renewal, levelling-up, and shared prosperity funds. We are very concerned with the lack of engagement on all three funds between the two Governments. These are new and crucial funding streams for Wales, and a lack of dialogue risks misaligning objectives between local government and the Welsh and UK Governments. In order to ensure value for money of project delivery, we believe we work best for the people of Wales when all tiers of government work together. In relation to the community renewal and levelling-up funds, we heard from local government that the timescales for submitting bids had been challenging, and the administrative pressures may have been a deciding factor in the types of bids that were submitted. The UK Government has acknowledged this position. Furthermore, the process was described as inherently wasteful. We are therefore pleased that the shared prosperity fund has moved away from the competitive process of those funds, and we have made a number of recommendations in this area.
The Welsh Government has spoken positively about joint work with the UK Government on the free-ports programme in Wales. Equally, the UK Government said it is eager to strengthen its working relationship with the Welsh Government by building on its effective collaboration on the programme. In addition, the UK Government says it remains open to conversations with the Welsh Government on their role in any UK-wide ministerial forum, and, more broadly, on the opportunities for them to engage with SPF and other levelling-up funding opportunities. We hope the Welsh Government takes up this offer to engage, and hope the approach taken on free ports can be replicated in the delivery of SPF and future funds, in order to maximise the investment in Wales.
Finally, I’d like to look ahead at plans for future funding. The EU funding programmes were delivered over a 10-year period, with the flexibility and longer spend profiles being described as hugely important. The shared prosperity fund only has a three-year funding cycle and has restrictions on moving funds between projects and financial years. Furthermore, returning underspends from the SPF could lead to projects being proposed in order to ensure money is spent, rather than ensuring priorities are dealt with. For these reasons, we recommend the UK Government increases flexibility to move the SPF funding between financial years and between projects, as well as increasing flexibility on how underspends will be treated. We note the UK Government’s response that, and I quote:
'The UKSPF is providing local leaders with the opportunity to spend funding as they see fit and to enable places across Wales to unleash their unique potential.'
However, this response reiterates our view that the Welsh Government is being bypassed in the decision-making process. We also sought clarity on the UK Government’s long-term plans for replacement EU funding and the status of the shared prosperity fund beyond 2025. The UK Government has said that any continuation of existing or successor funds will be informed by a combination of engagement with relevant partners and evaluation of evidence, and that it would be inappropriate to pre-empt the structure and focus of future funds at this point in time. In this current economic climate, this offers little reassurance, and the committee believes that more needs to be done until we see funding arrangements that meet Wales’s needs. Diolch yn fawr.

Peter Fox AS: Can I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate today as a member of the Finance Committee, and can I thank the Chairman for capturing so eloquently the position we found? Of course, leaving the EU was always going to present challenges, particularly when such funding had become entrenched within communities over a period of time, but I also believe that it presented us with an opportunity to design new funding schemes so that we could support people, businesses and communities as effectively and as efficiently as possible.
There are some differences with the new funds that were broadly welcomed by most stakeholders. For example, in evidence, the WLGA welcomed the decision of the UK Government to allocate these funds directly to councils as the democratically elected bodies closest to the people they serve, but I understand that Welsh Ministers have not been as positive about this, feeling like they have been somewhat sidelined. The committee report rightly recommends that the UK Government provides further information on how the UK-wide ministerial forums will support the design and delivery of the funds.
From a personal viewpoint, and I reiterate personal, there is scope to support a more localised administration of this replacement funding. As a former local authority leader, I am a firm believer and advocate for the principles of subsidiarity. As we heard from stakeholders, and as I know myself, councils are often best placed to manage funding initiatives. They already work within local and regional structures, are familiar with partners and stakeholders, and understand what it is in their area that is needed.
This takes me on to a more fundamental point. As the Chairman has said, the committee heard in evidence that a lack of engagement and collaboration between UK and Welsh Government is holding back the potential of new post-EU funding schemes to deliver what they are intended to achieve. This is also preventing us from properly learning about what is currently going right and what needs to change to ensure that the funding streams work together in a coherent way.
There were always going to be some teething problems when setting up funds, and these have been explored by the Finance Committee, such as challenging timescales and whether the process is as streamlined as it could be. Hopefully, the UK Government listens to these and identifies ways of moulding the schemes so that they work more efficiently. But, I feel that both Governments have become drawn into an increasingly complex argument about the quantum of funding compared to previous EU funding, which has unnecessarily soured relationships and hindered progress.
As the report notes, the committee is of the view that both the Welsh and UK Government estimate the overall annual level of funding through ESF and ERDF at broadly the same level. The difference is how this relates to the tail-off of remaining EU funding and the reliance of the Welsh Government on projected EU funding, which brings with it a level of uncertainty as to exactly how much we would have received.
As the Chairman has already referenced, we received a letter only yesterday from the Minister of levelling up regarding the Welsh Government's claim that the value of the SPF has been reduced by £400 million. The letter states that this statement is factually incorrect, and the Government confirmed that there has been no change to the total quantum of UK SPF funding. So, I hope that the Minister will address this in their response, because too often the discussion has been muddied by politics, and it shows why there needs to be more openness and clarity from both sides so we know exactly what is going on and how any issues will be rectified so that the Welsh and UK Governments can finally move on from this debate.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Alun Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Peter Fox AS: Yes, certainly, Alun.

Alun Davies AC: You spent finance questions emphasising the importance of the quantum of cash available to local government. I've got no argument with that. You now seem to be proposing an argument where the quantum of cash is less important than other matters. Who is the real Peter Fox?

Peter Fox AS: All I'm saying is that there are two parties here who believe that the quantum is different, yet we haven't had the evidence to demonstrate one way or another. I'm reciprocating what the Chairman has said. The real Peter Fox is stood behind you, and he'll tell you as he sees it.
Instead, let's focus on what really matters the most, and what the committee report is actually about, and that is providing communities with the funding that they need, getting projects off the ground, and delivering a better future for our communities. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I recommend Members read the full report? Because there are some very interesting things in there, not just the recommendations and the committee views and conclusions, which normally most of us read in reports of committees we're not on.
On 1 January 2021, the trade and co-operation agreement took effect and established the UK's future relationship with the EU. The UK's access to future rounds of European Union structural funding programmes was not agreed. That meant that we no longer got the money. The UK Government has developed their new funding schemes: the UK community renewal fund, the levelling-up fund, and the UK shared prosperity fund. The Welsh Government has said that there's a reduction in the money coming to Wales. The Westminster Government has said that there is not. Both statements were said confidently and forcefully, as if there could be no argument with them. Neither has shown their workings, although Simon Hart did promise to show the Westminster calculations, but he was not Secretary of State for long enough after the meeting to fulfil that promise. Our request to the Welsh Government is that when they make financial statements, to publish their calculations. Eventually, we discovered that some, or almost all, of the difference was that Westminster included continued European funding that was tailing off, and the Welsh Government did not. If the Welsh Government knew that, why didn't they tell us that in the first place? It would have made life a lot easier for the committee, and saved us a substantial amount of time.
The competitive processes around the UK's community renewal fund and levelling-up fund were also criticised by local authorities. Pembrokeshire County Council, which is certainly not a Labour area, referred to the competitive process around the community renewal fund as 'inherently wasteful'. The WLGA explained that when you add competition for the funding, all local authorities put in a lot of resources and spend a lot of time, and other organisations put in a lot of resources, and they had to put time and effort into bidding with no guarantee of success. Then, of course, all those applications had to be assessed. You're spending a lot of time, a lot of money, and with a lot of people ending up very upset at the end of it.
The shared prosperity fund was launched on 13 April and will cover 2022-23 to 2024-25. It's valued at £2.6 billion across the UK. The Finance Committee of the fifth Senedd expressed disappointment regarding the lack of available information on the shared prosperity fund in its report on preparation for replacing EU funding in Wales in 2018. This followed the Welsh Affairs Committee concluding in 2020 that up to that point in time there had been a failure to properly engage with stakeholders or Parliament.
Local allocations of the shared prosperity fund in Wales are distributed on a basis of population 40 per cent, community renewal fund index 30 per cent, Welsh index of multiple deprivation 30 per cent. In terms of how the distribution differs to EU funding, as has been noted, it is not possible to compare allocations at local authority level with previous EU funding due to most EU project allocations spanning more than one area. There is an apparent shift away from the west Wales and the Valleys region towards east Wales. I would put it much more simply: from the poorer parts of Wales to the more affluent parts of Wales. I welcome the shared prosperity fund moving away from the competitive funding process of the community renewal and levelling-up funds.
Can I come on to what I think is the most important thing? I believe universities are the key to improve the gross value added and income of Wales. If we look at successful cities, regions and nations, the role of universities is crucial to economic success. Successful areas also have highly educated and skilled people living there. Why are Palo Alto and Cambridge more successful than anywhere in Wales by two or three times? Why is Mannheim the same? They've got those things. These are incredibly important. If we're going to become wealthy, we need more universities, more money spent on universities, and more research being carried out. The UK's ongoing uncertain future relationship with Horizon Europe is adding to the pressure facing Welsh universities. Universities Wales have welcomed the recent confirmation from the Westminster Government that associating with Horizon Europe remains the ambition of the UK Government. I welcome that, in the interim, there was an announcement of a funding package to invest in the UK research and development sector. It will be beneficial if the UK remains closely associated with Horizon Europe in the future, if only to allow people with great skills to come into this country and to work with other people in Europe with those great skills in order to improve our wealth.
The announced investment from the UK Government includes an uplift of £100 million in quality-related funding for English universities, and we get a Barnett consequential. Quality-related funding is essential in enabling our Welsh universities to compete and attract additional investment to Wales, bringing benefits to communities across the country. Providing this funding to Welsh universities will help mitigate the impact of the uncertainty over the future association with Horizon Europe and a loss of European structural and investment funds, but, fundamentally, if you want to be a wealthy nation, you have a highly skilled, highly educated workforce, and outstanding universities.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I thank the committee Chair and members for their work in this important area. For me, the starting point is to remind ourselves of some of the pledges made by the UK Government as we left the European Union, and just to evaluate to what extent those pledges have been delivered six years down the line. We were told, as we've just heard, that we wouldn't be a penny worse off here in Wales. We were also told that we would benefit from removing the regulatory burden and the red tape, and that that would allow targeted investment and more efficient investment too. We were told that it would be a means to take back control, if you recall, and to empower devolution to make decisions. Now, I don't see that yet, I have to say, although we are six years down the line, as has been noted.
The funding allocated to Wales under the shared prosperity fund up to 2025 falls short of the levels that we would have received during the same period were we still part of the European Union. The implications of the autumn statement by the Westminster Government, of course, tell us that there will be £400 million less, although I do note what the Chair said on correspondence that countered that argument, but if you only look at the economy and the performance of the economy more broadly, particularly in comparison to the rest of the G7, then the suggestion that we are, somehow, better off being where we are today, to me, is just an empty promise. And we also know that the Welsh Government wasn't consulted with at any stage on the development and planning of how this budget would be used, although, of course, they do cut across devolved areas and, for me, that sends a message that the Westminster Government is treating this place with disdain.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: And let's contrast what we have and what we have, is what I'm trying to say, because the shared prosperity fund is an unashamed political construct, hastily cobbled together to fill a vacuum left behind after Brexit, forcing, effectively, the recreation of a wheel that was already in place. The Welsh Government had a framework, co-developed over a number of years with the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, with Welsh local authorities, with higher education, further education, the business sector and the third sector—all subject to public consultation as well. But no, we need to build something else.
We heard from Mike Hedges that bids have been resource intensive for local authorities, very much driven by time pressure rather than a more strategic take when it comes to influencing which projects are being put forward. No necessity of reference to other investment, particularly Welsh Government investment, so you end up with non-complementary projects, a risk of duplication, and certainly a risk of poor value for money as well. And Multiply, of course, is referenced in the work. Education and skills are devolved, but the Welsh Government was given no role in developing those proposals. There should be huge alarm bells ringing there about the Westminster Government meddling in devolved areas, and again, running the risk of serious duplication around some these.
We're now moving from EU funding cycles of 10 years, with two-year overlap as well, which gave stability and continuity, and allowed for a long-term strategic outlook, to a shared prosperity fund three-year funding cycle. We're at the end or very nearly at the end of the first year now, and local authorities are still waiting for confirmation on the SPF investment plans. It isn't conducive to the best use of resources.
The UK Government as well have created, as they confirm in their response to the report, a dedicated Wales-area team to now run the bureaucratic side of these post-EU funding streams, and that includes work around reporting, monitoring, assurance, evaluation. All very important—granted—but of course, all of these already exist in Wales and all of this is now replication, it's duplication, it's additional complication, and cost to the Welsh taxpayer. So, my conclusion is that it's very much, so far, so bad, and there's a long, long way to go to make sure that those promises that were made six years ago are anywhere near being delivered.

Rhianon Passmore AC: As a member, also, of the Finance Committee, I was very keen that the committee undertake this hugely important piece of work for Wales as a matter of priority, both for fairness and honesty and fair funding as principle, and for the fulfillment of political promise and trust and so that Wales is also not treated with disdain. This is because Wales was the largest recipient of EU funding relative to its population of the UK nations. It is vital that we hold the UK Government to its promise and to account, in that Wales is, in their own words, not a penny poorer off now that the United Kingdom has left the European Union. I note the Welsh Government's response to our report, where they state that not a penny of replacement EU funding has reached Wales.
I am heartened that the Welsh Government has remained totally committed to further dialogue with the UK Government, which includes a discussion on the shared prosperity fund, funding levels and allocations, together with the establishment of a genuine co-decision making function for Ministers, in order to improve that impact and value for money of the fund in Wales. The Welsh people deserve nothing less than for both the Welsh and UK Governments to devote themselves and work constructively to ensure that Wales does not lose out financially. Today, it is beholden on Rishi Sunak, the third Tory Prime Minister of the year, to now honour the previous promise to Wales, in that the Welsh people would not be, again, a penny worse off when we left the EU.
Deputy Llywydd, as the Tory cost-of-living crisis deepens, and after the shambolic 'blink and you miss it' premiership of Liz Truss and her mini-budget, the people of Wales deserve and demand that the Tory UK Government do the right thing by them and honour their pledge to Wales.

Jane Dodds AS: Yes, thank you so much to the Finance Committee for bringing forward this report. It's very detailed and it's very clear.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much to Peredur and the other Members too.

Jane Dodds AS: My party's opposition to Brexit is well known. Brexit has had an impact on our standing in the world, on our ability to travel freely, and, importantly, on our economy. It is this economic argument that I suspect we might actually be winning, because in the light of the cost-of-living crisis, as everyone can see, we are likely worse off than had we actually remained members of the European Union. We, the Welsh Liberal Democrats, are calling on the UK Government to rejoin the single market and the customs union, so that we can end the unnecessary bureaucracy that is affecting our ability to trade with our closest neighbours.
Focusing in on the report's findings, it's clear that the structural funds that were available to Wales pre Brexit are not going to be replaced in their entirety by the UK Government, and Wales will definitely be worse off by this metric. This is in spite of the Conservatives' manifesto promise in their 2017 and their 2019 manifestos, that the shared prosperity fund would directly replace EU structural funds. It's even a further concern as well that not a single penny of the shared prosperity fund moneys has been spent in Wales to date, and that Wales will definitely be receiving less than it would have done had we remained members of the European Union.
I just want to focus on one small area, just to finish off, and that's with regard to the report's conclusions on funding for the sciences. The UK Government needs to urgently address the shortfall that Welsh science will experience via the UK shared prosperity fund—the £772 million lost to Wales returned across the next three years. Just think about that number: £772 million that we should be getting for our sciences. But we know that science, particularly in the area of physics, is a boon to our Welsh economy, and we've heard from Mike Hedges around how skills and universities and learning are so important to our country. The Institute of Physics estimates that physics itself is worth around £7.3 billion to the Welsh economy. It's clear that there issome work to be done by Welsh Government in embedding science as part of its forthcoming innovation strategy, but also in attempting to convince the current UK Government of the importance of this sector in terms of investment. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Alun Davies AC: I'd like to start by very much agreeing with the Welsh Liberal Democrats on rejoining the single market and the customs union. I think the damage done by Brexit is going to be a disaster not just for our generation but for future generations, and I hope that all political parties will recognise that. I don't expect the Minister to reply to me on this point, but I hope that she and her enigmatic smile this afternoon—perhaps I shouldn't read too much into it, but I hope it means that she doesn't at least violently disagree with me.
In terms of where we are on EU funding, I'm very grateful to the Finance Committee for this report. I think it's a very important report, and it's one that I very much welcome. I think we need to have a realistic debate on where we are on EU funding. I'm afraid that there has been a lot of—how shall I put it; I'm trying to find a different word in my mind from the word 'nonsense' that's written down in front of me—there is a lot of talk about EU funding that I think has been largely misplaced. I well remember a former First Minister, actually, describing it as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for fundamental change. But, it was never that, and you can't undo a century of economic decline with a five-year funding stream. You need a funding stream over a number of years. And of course the old Objective 1 status was designed in order to deliver that. It was never going to be a one-off funding experiment, if you like, it was always going to be a part of a wider opportunity to underpin economic development over a number of years. And European Union funding, of course, was always based on the principle of additionality. It was never assumed that it would replace spending from national Governments. And it was always that partnership that was crucial to it. So, we were always wrong to assume that EU funding was a panacea for all our economic difficulties. And EU funding was a part of that jigsaw that enabled us to do far more than we could do ourselves. The additionality meant that we had streams for investment in people, infrastructure and places. And I've seen that in my own constituency.
The UK Government has broken its word, and it is in danger of breaking the union. The External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee in the last Senedd reported on this subject, and the Deputy Presiding Officer, of course, chaired the committee at that time, and he will remember, as I remember, the then Secretary of State giving an absolute undertaking that every penny of EU funding would be replaced under the new system. And that's something that clearly, whatever the complications we now see, hasn't been delivered. And I think we can be very clear about that. The United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 is a destructive piece of legislation that doesn't simply attack this place, but it undermines the UK constitution and the agreed will of the people of Wales. I have to say to Peter Fox that this is also a democratically elected institution, and this place has a mandate, and it has a mandate and powers given not simply by the whim of a Secretary of State but delivered by the people through a referendum, and they have the right for a Government to respect that. Yes?

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention? I accept the outcomes of referendums; it's a great shame that you did not accept the outcome of the referendum to leave the European Union. In your own constituency, 62 per cent of people voted to leave. How have you represented them over the past few years?

Alun Davies AC: I've always stood up—and you, of course, as a Conservative, will be familiar with the work of Edmund Burke, the father of modern Conservatism. And what he said very clearly in his speech to the electors of Bristol is that an elected Member owes his allegiance to the people represented by him, not just by his labour but also by articulating what he believes. And that is what I've done, and I will continue to do it. And I will argue for a democratic mandate to overturn the referendum in 2016. I wouldn't do it through the back door or by legislating to do it without consulting the people.
So, what we've seen over the last few years is a lack of transparency, no understanding of the purpose or objectives of the new programmes, no co-ordination, the exclusion of the Welsh Government, which is an affront to Welsh democracy, and we've seen a system in its place that is chaotic and a shambles—and that is quoting a Conservative MP. So, let us be absolutely clear for what we need. Where does it leave us? We have a broken system and it's one that needs to be repaired. And the EU model is actually instructive in doing so. I believe that we do require—and a Welsh Government I think has argued for this before—a council of Ministers reaching agreement by consensus rather than receiving diktats being imposed by press release. We need the transparency to be able to argue and articulate our views, and, for the Conservative point of view, we need to understand what are the purposes and objectives of funding streams before they're introduced and not simply reported upon after they've been introduced. And we need to go back to the co-ordination that Huw Irranca-Davies led as Chair of the EU funding committee at the time, to ensure that you bring people together, you don't exclude people and you ensure that Wales is served by all the people it represents. At the moment, what we have is a broken system and we're in danger of having a broken union.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Alun, thank you for taking my name in vain, but in a praiseworthy way there for a moment. But I would say that report is still there and it's still valid, I have to say, and it was put together—. I'll turn to this report in a moment, but that report on the future funding, regional funding, within Wales, I have to say set the benchmark for what we should be doing throughout the UK, and it was OECD reformed, as Llyr actually said. It was supported not only by industry, trade unions, third sector, civil society, post-16 education and so on, and it's there on the shelf, and, to be honest, it did actually have as one of its key elements how we could work cross border with the UK Government, and on a trans-European basis as well. So, I would say to the UK Government still, as well as to Members who may not have seen it: have a look at that report, dust it off. There is no better model for regional funding, not just here in Wales, but across the EU, currently, and the UK Government could take that and turn it into a partnership with the Welsh Government and the way forward.
But let me turn to this report. I think it's brilliant. I've really enjoyed reading it, which might surprise the committee chairman and its members, but the reason I've enjoyed it is because it's very well informed and it also reflects what I and others must have been hearing from businesses and others within their own constituencies. But also, that group that I mentioned that put that piece of work together, many of them are now part of the strategic forum for regional investment in Wales, which is trying to work through some of the difficulties highlighted in this report.
Let me just pick up some of the areas that they've picked up on which are reflected in this report. In the preparation of these bids by a local authority, the immense time burden that it put on—so, it didn't suddenly simplify and reduce burdens, it put the burden firmly and squarely on local authorities to produce bids in a competitive process. Not only that, it put time pressures on them, and those time pressures meant that sometimes they didn't pick the best, they didn't look around and liaise with others—they did their best to do it, but they had to actually say, 'What have we got on the shelf that’s ready? We've got a better project down the line, if we only had a little bit of time to work this up, and we could do it with the neighbouring two or three authorities, but it's not ready, so we're going to have to pick that one, and pick that one and throw it forward.'
And then you've got the fact that it's not that it's just this place that has been bypassed, or that Welsh Government has been bypassed, and—[Inaudible.]—but the idea that, in parts of these funding streams in the early days, you've actually got MPs who were being asked to put forward schemes that had their names on it—not MSs, not local authorities, but MPs. Now, this is quite interesting, because this is good, old-fashioned American-style pork-barrel politics: ‘Here’s my pet project. Minister, I’ll support you. Give me this project here. It may not be the best one for my constituents, but it's the one I want on it.’ Now this is wrong. All I say to colleagues here to my left on the Conservative benches is: you should not do this. One of the lessons from previous ranges of European funding was the criticisms of complexity and the time it took and so on. But the one thing you could say: they were accountable and they were driven on good analysis of need, and it was also informed by bottom-up approaches by communities who said, 'This is what we want.' Now there could be a different model. [Interruption.] I will indeed give way.

Tom Giffard AS: I'm grateful to you for that. You'll be aware that the Penprysg railway bridge is something that benefits from the UK Government's levelling-up fund, and your MP colleague Chris Elmore has put his name to that. Are you saying that's the wrong decision?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: No, not at all. In fact, I would support that, but my point is this: should it be that one MP, one elected representative, ignorant of the policy framework in Wales, ignorant of the wider needs of the rail network within that area as well, such as the Maesteg and Tondu crossing, which has been waiting for 20 years for the investment from UK Network Rail—that doesn't get a mention—one MP gets to say it, whether it's Chris Elmore or Jamie Wallis or anybody else? It should not be pork-barrel-style politics, and that's my point. There is a better way to do it. I'm running out of time here. Let me just go on to some of the other things—

I have given you some extra time. You have another intervention, if you wish to take it.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Will you take another intervention?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Oh—. Yes, I will. I will.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Would you take another intervention, from me? I understand that a levelling-up funding bid for railway infrastructure was declined by the UK Government and the authority has to put it back in again. But do you agree with me that local authority officers have said it's like going back 10 years now to move forward with this, so it's not really achieving very much, is it?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I entirely agree. We need to move away from this, and it needs to be based on good analysis, needs analysis, and where the money should be properly going. And to pick up on Alun's quite right point, this is not just to do with the current quantum of funding that may be lost, it's to do with long-term sustainable funding that goes to those areas and communities that most need it. We do not have that model. So, let me quickly, with those couple of interventions, just—

I will give you time.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much—

But not too much.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: —Dirprwy Lywydd. No clarity at the moment from UK Government on future, medium, long-term post-EU funding. No agreement or clarity on the amount lost to Wales or otherwise. Ongoing uncertainty over Erasmus+, Horizon Europe, other European co-operation agreements. Poor or absent—absent—engagement between UK and Welsh Governments. Now, I would simply say to my Conservative colleagues that this has been put upon Wales, not done in partnership, so it's for the UK Government to reach out and say, 'Let's do this together.' That lack of engagement does not fall at the Welsh Government's feet; it falls at the UK Government's.
And finally, that lack of formal role for not just Welsh Government but for this Senedd, for individual Senedd Members sitting all around this Chamber who represent their constituencies—that complete absence. We cannot go forward like this, so I think the recommendations and the conclusions are sound, and I really hope that UK Government and the committees in the UK—both Parliaments—see this and listen to it, as do Ministers. I also hope that this might be part of the discussion when the Welsh Affairs Select Committee visit here this week. Cracking report—well done.

I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch.I welcome the motion today and would like to thank the Finance Committee for its work and for the report on post-EU funding arrangements, but also to all of those Welsh partners who have engaged so strongly with the inquiry as well and provided such clear evidence. It really is a timely and important contribution to the debate on what is a critical issue, as the UK Government's approach to post-EU funding is not only a deliberate and unacceptable encroachment onto a devolved policy area, but it's also costing Wales jobs and growth.
In its autumn statement, the UK Government appeared to be cutting the UK shared prosperity fund by £400 million in 2024-25 and showing no expenditure in this financial year. It did that despite Welsh investment plans for the fund having been submitted during the summer for projects that should have already started commencing. But I have seen that letter today that has been sent to the Chair of the Finance Committee and we'll look into this further, but it does seem, from what the letter suggests, that the funding has now been subsumed into the DLUC departmental budget in the UK Government, but to what extent it's fully additional we'll still have to explore and get to the bottom of, I think. But I think that just really speaks to the lack of transparency that there is on the part of the UK Government in terms of spending, and how difficult it is, sometimes, to get clarity and how important it is that the UK Government just improves the communication with devolved Governments, especially in areas where they're seeking to exert influence that cuts across devolved competencies.
I think that these actions just demonstrate a real and clear failure of the UK Government to deliver its manifesto pledge to replace EU funding in full. That's just not even up for debate, it's an absolute fact, because, had we remained in the European Union, we would be receiving an additional £375 million every January. But the UK Government has netted off the tail funding that we have in terms of years coming post Brexit. So, it's just unarguable that there is less new money coming to Wales as a result.
I was pleased to set out our workings out. I issued a written statement to the Senedd some time ago now in response to questions from colleagues in the Chamber to set out how we had come to that conclusion. But I think that no Member here today can deny the fact that the UK Government's failures to do what is best for the Welsh economy are just stacking up one by one.

Rebecca Evans AC: Existing and new EUfunding programmes overlap by two years, and the Welsh Government was ready to start a post-EU investment programme almost two years ago, in January 2021, and, by that point, we'd already done a huge amount of intensive work with the OECD and with our Welsh partners to create the strongest possible model for Wales. And it's still completely unacceptable that the UK Government has dismissed that really, really detailed work, and the public consultation, indeed, which supported that, in favour of their own approach, which was, frankly, just cobbled together at the last minute earlier this year. And the consequences of the UK Government's post-EU funding approach are really stark. So, the SPF distribution formula redirects economic development funds away from those areas in Wales where poverty is most concentrated, and we've seen such actions celebrated by our current Prime Minister in terms of moving funding from the areas where it's needed most to those areas that are more affluent.
Local authorities are being put under enormous strain due to unfeasible timescales now for developing plans and projects and putting in place the administrative and the governance arrangements that have to sit alongside their proposals. And also, really importantly, universities, colleges, the third sector and businesses have been completely shut out of directly accessing funding, and it leaves many of those sectors now reporting redundancies and the closure of vital services—absolutely really harmful, real-world effects on Wales as a result of the existing situation.
The Welsh Government's being denied access to the SPF to support previously EU-funded pan-Wales programmes that are absolutely critical for productivity and growth—for example, Business Wales, apprenticeships, the development bank and our innovation schemes. And because of the low funding levels, the short timescales, the inflexibility, local authorities are being forced, as we've heard, to select those smaller suboptimal projects, which will risk not having real impact.
Our rural communities, of course, are £243 million worse off than if we'd remained in the EU, because the UK Government has deducted the EU receipts due to Wales for work that was part of the 2014 to 2020 rural development programme. And, of course, political delays in formalising the UK's association to Horizon Europe mean that universities and businesses in Wales are losing out on access to vital research and innovation funding.
Bypassing the Welsh Government and this Senedd risks duplication and blurred accountability, and this is already demonstrated by the way in which the UK Government is handling the delivery of the Multiply scheme and its failure to response meaningfully, I think, to the Finance Committee's specific recommendations on this. These actions also need to be seen in the context of our Welsh budget settlement, which, of course, as we've heard earlier today, is worth £1 billion less next year, and the approach also undermines devolution and has little regard, actually, for the wishes of Welsh partners.
So, turning to the committee report's recommendations, we accept all of those that are directed towards the Welsh Government, and we'll continue to work with partners to mitigate as much of this disruption and the consequences as we can. This includes brokering collaboration between sectors and supporting local government with their plans. We also continue to hold our regular meetings of the strategic forum for regional investment in Wales, chaired by Huw Irranca-Davies, to share information and lessons learned amongst Welsh partners.
In regard to the report's recommendations for the UK Government, we are grateful for the committee raising these important points. The UK Government's response to the report, I think, is regrettably dismissive, and it fails to meaningfully address many of the recommendations and, once again, of course, it refuses to accept the enormous loss of funding that's now being felt by communities across Wales.
A responsible UK Government would put the needs of the Welsh economy first and listen to us, our partners and a range of independent experts and cross-party groups, who have urged UK Ministers to take a different approach—an approach that involves co-decision making and would deliver much better value for money and economic impact. A substantive discussion on post-EU funding is planned at the next Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee, which, I think, is due to take place early next month and which I will be attending.
We were able, as we've heard, to work more constructively together, and more successfully, on the issue of free ports. It is vital that the UK Government replicates that more productive approach in the delivery of post-EU funds and other UK funds using the internal market Act. That will mean, then, that we can better address together Wales's long-term structural challenges and maximise the opportunities in support of our mission to create a stronger, fairer and greener Wales.

I call on the Chair of the committee to respond to the debate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I thank everyone for taking part in this debate this afternoon.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: It highlights the complexity and the emotive matters that we have been discussing this afternoon. Just briefly, a few comments on the speakers. Peter, to start with, talked about that lack of engagement and that complexity of not talking to each other. Mike, then—one point to make is that Simon Hart didn't send us the workings, but Robert Buckland did, so we did have some of that information. But, I think you have designed our new motto as a committee, 'Show your working'. I think that keeps coming up every time, so to any Minister listening or anybody coming to speak to us in future, then 'Show your working' would be a very important thing.
Llyr talked, again, about there being a long way to go to deliver on the promises made. Thanks to Rhianon and Jane, also, for talking about the promises that were made. Alun and Huw talked about the long-term funding arrangements and the long-term planning, and there were kind words from Huw there about the report itself and, obviously, the other report that started some of this process. I know that other committees are looking to take this work on and look at this further. I believe that the economy committee is going to start some work on this next year as well to keep this conversation going and to keep this dialogue going. This investigation that we did was a deep dive—an initial look at this—and it needs further investigation.
Then, thank you to the Minister for her comments, highlighting again some of the inflexibility that I talked about in some of these funds and that dialogue between the two Governments not happening. The one thing that we need to bear in mind is that it's our communities—our most vulnerable communities—that are affected by all of this, and it's those people whom we see out there in the real world, as it were, who are affected by the bun fight, if you like, on who's paying for what and what money is going where. So, we need to have better communications.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: To close, Dirprwy Lywydd, this report shines a light on these funding arrangements and, more importantly, on how the funds operate in Wales and their impact on the communities that need them most. I would like to thank Members and the Minister for their contributions today. I believe that this is the first committee inquiry to be conducted on this issue in the current Senedd, and I hope that it provides solid foundations and establishes helpful principles for the scrutiny of these funds in future. We all want to see Wales receiving its fair share and I hope that this report contributes to ensuring that this happens.
Before closing, quickly, I would like to thank the organisations and individuals that provided evidence to our inquiry, and the clerking team, for their commitment to the process. To ensure that these new funds have maximum impact and reach the right places and people, we need a grown-up approach based on mature discourse and clarity. I am pleased that the UK Government and the Welsh Government have extended opportunities for each other to engage more, and I agree that there should be a genuine co-decision-making function for Welsh Ministers in order to improve the impact and value for money of funds and investments in Wales. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No; the motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee Report—'Levelling the playing field: A report on participation in sport and physical activity in disadvantaged areas'

Item 6 this afternoon is a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee report, 'Levelling the playing field: A report on participation in sport and physical activity in disadvantaged areas'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Delyth Jewell.

Motion NDM8152 Delyth Jewell
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee ‘Levelling the playing field: A report on participation in sport and physical activity in disadvantaged areas’ which was laid in the Table Office on 15 August 2022.

Motion moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion on behalf of the committee. It is my pleasure to open the debate today on behalf of our committee to discuss our report on participation in sport in disadvantaged areas.I would like to thank everyone who took part in this inquiry and who shared their experiences with us as a committee, and I’d like to thank the other members of the committee and our clerking and research teams for their work on the inquiry.
Our report, and our debate this afternoon, is about the opportunities that people have to be active when they live either in disadvantaged areas, or live disadvantaged lives. Sport should be played on a level playing field, as we say in English. But unfortunately, it's not like that. The subject of our inquiry was one that a number of our stakeholders asked us as a committee to look into, and it is clearly an important topic for the Government. After all, the Government told us in giving evidence on the draft budget in January this year that
'Sport can be the most effective preventative health tool in the country.'
Please note: it 'can' be. There is potential here, but, as we discovered as a committee when we took evidence, this potential is hindered in too many areas by poverty and a lack of opportunity. And the situation is getting worse.
Dirprwy Lywydd, the pandemic has exacerbated a situation that was already very poor. The latest data from Sport Wales, from August this year, shows that 41 per cent of people say that the cost-of-living crisis has also now had a negative impact on their ability to be active.And the Sport Wales survey from February this year showed that 40 per cent of adults feel that the pandemic has led to negative changes in their exercise plans. Men, older adults, those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and people with long-standing conditions or illnesses are the most likely ones to feel that way. People from more prosperous backgrounds tended to feel the opposite.
There is a stubborn deprivation gap in terms of the participation of school-age children in sport, too. Again, according to figures from Sport Wales, in 2022, 32 per cent of children from the most disadvantaged areas were taking part in sports outwith the curriculum three or more times a week. The figure for pupils in the least deprived areas was 47 percent. We have an opportunity to change things. And in light of the scale of the problem, it is disappointing that the Government has rejected our two main recommendations, although we do welcome the areas where the Government has said that it would consider making changes.
Our main recommendation talks about the need to change the system from the top down for sport and physical activity. Our report calls for a new, collaborative, national approach from the Welsh Government. This would be an opportunity to set measurable targets and a defined timetable, over a period of five years. The problems that we have identified are too deep rooted to resolve without that kind of astonishing change, and our recommendation would mean that every person, every agency and every department in the Government would work towards this same common goal. This wouldn’t mean starting again; it would mean the Government setting a definite ambition for taking part in sport, bringing good practices together. All of our other recommendations flow from this main recommendation.
The main other ones that I want to address are the physical activity development grant, which has been accepted in principle by the Government, and the recommendation relating to funding, which has been rejected. The grant, according to our recommendation, would learn from the Active Me—Kia Tū pilot scheme in New Zealand, seeking to improve access for those in disadvantaged areas to opportunities relating to sport and physical activity. And as the Deputy Minister has just returned from New Zealand, where she learned about this work, we would welcome an update from her on our recommendation. Our recommendation is different to the pupil development grant, as it would fund also support to get professional advice to develop plans, sports kit or subscription fees, access to a sports facility, and also travel expenses.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I will turn to our recommendation on funding. I will give some context to explain this. The Welsh Government has acknowledged that sport can be the most effective preventative health tool. NHS waiting lists grew 50 per cent between March 2020 and April this year, so a tool of this kind would be welcome. But the funding for Sport Wales has plateaued. The final revenue budget for 2021-22 will increase from £22.4 million to £22.7 million in the final budget for 2022-23; that is, an increase of 1 per cent. And it's estimated that it will increase by 6 per cent by 2024-25, which is much lower than current inflation rates. And capital funding for the same period is down from £8.6 million to £8 million.
Before we hear from other Members in this important debate, I would like to say that exceptionally good things are happening across Wales. A number of stakeholders applauded the work of Sport Wales—the projects across Wales that are doing such great work and making such a difference in people's lives. Our argument is that, with the right resources, things could be even better. Over recent weeks, we've all enjoyed watching Wales in the world cup. But without timely investment from the Welsh Government, we risk losing the infrastructure to develop the next generation of players—the Bales, the Ramseys of the future. And this applies, of course, to all sports and every activity. We want Wales to stay on top of the world. This would be an investment in the nation's health in so many ways, and I look forward to hearing the views of other Members. Thank you.

Tom Giffard AS: As a member of the committee, can I pay tribute to and thank all those that gave evidence to us on the committee during the inquiry, and, as Delyth has done, thank the clerks and the research team for ensuring that the inquiry was held in a timely and positive manner? Some of us needed their help more than others.
It's surely no coincidence that this report is debated during what's been a massive period for Welsh football and Welsh sport in general, showcasing our nation on a global scale. I think we've truly seen the power of elite sport, but every elite sport story starts from a grass-roots sport story, so that was the focus of our inquiry. The report starts with a quote from the Welsh Government that says that
'Sport can be the nation’s most effective preventative health tool'.
It has proven to be exactly that. Sport and physical activity have proven to provide massive physical and mental well-being benefits, but if only we had the equal spread of opportunity across the country to access those facilities. The World Health Organizaton in 2020 said that globally, one in four adults did not need meet the recommended levels of physical activity. Before the pandemic, only 32 per cent of adults participated in a sporting activity three times a week, whilst there were 40 per cent participating in no activity at all.
What's been most stark for me is that the most vulnerable members of our society have reported doing less activity than before the pandemic. The evidence we received in the committee found that there were a number of barriers facing those in disadvantaged areas from participating in sport and physical activity. These range from the suitability of facilities available, the lack of safe spaces for doing exercise, reductions in times allocated for sport, and stereotypes that, frankly, belong in the past. The Deputy Minister acknowledged during an evidence session with the committee that those areas of highest deprivation were hit the worst.
The programme for government includes a brief commitment to providing equal access to sport, but Sport Wales's remit letter includes an important requirement to ensuring vulnerable groups are not excluded from participating in sport. And whilst some of the cross-departmental initiatives being run by the Welsh Government are welcome, it'd be useful to know what discussions the Deputy Minister has had with Sport Wales to ensure they're complying with their remit to ensure that those vulnerable groups are not excluded from sport, and what steps they are taking to narrow this particular gap.
To move on to the other recommendations in the report, I thought it was quite disappointing that the Government hasn't approached these recommendations with the open-mindedness and spirit that they were intended to set this national standardfor access to sport across Wales. But I was pleased to see the Government accept in principle recommendation 4 in particular. The opening up of community facilities in disadvantaged areas to increase opportunities to participate in sport is vital to ensure the success and future of getting people from those areas to participate in sport and activity.

Jack Sargeant AC: Will you give way?

Tom Giffard AS: Yes.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank Tom Giffard for giving way, and I understand that this particular committee's report is about the participation in sport, but do you agree with me that it's actually a little bit wider than that as well? It's about going, taking part and maybe watching sport in these disadvantaged areas, because that's very good for mental health as well, in a community spirit.

Tom Giffard AS: Yes, absolutely, and it's not just—I can't remember the exact quote, but one of our witnesses came to the committee and said that sport was not just for people who are really good at sport; sport should be for everybody as well.
We heard, though, from many giving evidence during this inquiry, that some schools, even though they benefited from twenty-first century schools project money, and part of that funding was to ensure access for the communities in which they serve facilities, that's not always been the case. And where I was a councillor in Brackla before this, I can attest, first-hand, that those facilities, once they were built, were not always available for communities in the way, perhaps, they were intended to be, when they were being designed. I know that this is one of those areas where the Deputy Minister's portfolio and the education Minister's portfolio overlap, but in our efforts to close the gap, we need to make sure that this particular outcome doesn't fall between those gaps.
Mark Lawrie from StreetGames told us that an average family living in poverty will spend about £3.75 a week on sport and active leisure. He noted that that was a 2019 figure, so we can only assume that that might be lower today. And Professor Melitta McNarry told us that she'd seen some information that showed that the average amount spent in deprived areas was £1.50 a week, compared with £10 in more well-off areas. Therefore, it's crucial that the Welsh Government does absolutely all it can to bridge that particular gap to ensure that those from disadvantaged backgrounds are not disadvantaged from participating in sport in the first place.
And finally, in closing, I wanted to highlight something that Noel Mooney, the chief executive of the Football Association of Wales has said on the state of facilities here in Wales, where he said,
'our grass-roots facilities are absolutely disgraceful here. I'm really shocked by how bad the facilities are here'.
Surely, our ambition for sport in Wales must be far higher than that. If we're going to truly deliver a legacy from this world cup, we need a serious levelling up in community facilities—let that be the legacy and let's level the playing field. Thank you.

Alun Davies AC: I'll start my remarks where Tom Giffard left off. I want to thank the committee Chair and the committee secretariat for all the work that they've done in producing this report. It was one of those really enjoyable, actually, committee investigations, because you're always learning things on committees, and listening to the lived experience of different people is always an important part of learning about the impact, or lack of impact sometimes, of policy and what the Government is seeking to do. And in holding the Government to account, it's always useful to listen to what people have to say, and I don't think there's any need for us to debate this afternoon the place of sport in our lives. I only had to listen to my 12-year-old son talking about how he was wearing his football shirt to school last Friday to know how important that was to him. And standing in the stadium watching Wales walking out of the tunnel, for the first time in a world cup since 1958, still—I can still barely explain how it felt—and to sing our national anthem amongst all the different fans from right across the world, and to watch our players standing there taking the pitch is something that will stay with me for the rest of my life, and it's something that's been an ambition of mine all of my life. And it's important, therefore, that we share the ability to enjoy sport and enjoy physical activity with people across all of our communities.
And there are certainly some issues identified in the report, and I hope the Minister will respond to those in her remarks. But what I want to focus on, in this short time, are two elements of the barriers that perhaps can hold people back and stop people participating in sport and physical activity. The first is geography, and the second is socioeconomics. All too often in this Chamber, we will talk about geography in very black-and-white terms—the rural versus urban, north versus south, and the rest of it—but if you live in the Heads of the Valleys, you don't easily fit into either of those particular categories, and the barriers can still be insurmountable. If you don't have the cash or there isn't a bus, then it doesn't matter if there are sporting facilities available in Cardiff or somewhere else, because you can't get there, and if you get there, you can't get home. If you can't afford to pay the heating bill, and your parents are worried at the moment about Christmas coming up, they are not going to be able to pay to go swimming or to pay the subs for a football team and the rest of it. So, those barriers are real barriers and exist in the communities that we represent today, and it isn't a stark contrast between one part of Wales and another part of Wales, because if you're poor in Butetown, then you still have the same barriers to overcome in seeking to access sporting facilities.
But, my concern, in representing Blaenau Gwent, is that we have the same opportunities to produce the next Gareth Bale as Whitchurch does in the centre of Cardiff. I want my children—. My son lives in Hay-on-Wye; I want him to have the same opportunity as a child would if they were growing up in Jenny's constituency in the centre of Cardiff. All too often, they don't, and that's the reality of it. All too often, our poorest communities do not have the facilities that they need to enable people to participate in sport as the communities in the cities and in wealthier suburbs. That's the reality of Wales today, and it needs to change.
I welcome the funding that the Government has announced—I think it's £24 million, isn't it—for enabling schools to develop as community hubs. But, I stood on that manifesto in 2016—in 2016 we needed to be delivering that. We need to look and have the ambition to match the best spending plans in the world. I also took my son—I don't think he'll ever forgive me—to watch the rugby earlier in the autumn, and I took my daughter to watch New Zealand score six tries against us in the best part of half an hour. Now, look, we can't compete with those teams unless our people, our children, our young people, have the same opportunities as their young people have on the other side of the world. That means investing in places, facilities, and investing in our young people.
I'll conclude on this: one of the things—I'm getting too old for all of this nowadays, of course—but one of the great pleasures of my life—. One of my great pleasures of recent years has been the development of female team sports. Because we always remember—. I still remember Mary Peters winning a medal in the Olympics when I was growing up, and she made that impression on me. We've always enjoyed watching female tennis, golf and the rest of it. But, watching the development of women's football and rugby particularly in my life, I think, has been one of the real pleasures in the last few years, and watching my daughter begin to identify, take me to watch Welsh women playing rugby, I think it's been one of the great pleasures. I remember talking to Laura McAllister many, many years ago when she was going off to play football for Cardiff City, and I remember how important that was to her. So, to see now women's sport beginning to have the opportunities and the equalities that it's always deserved and required, I think, is one of the great achievements of recent years, and I very much welcome that. But let's make sure—

And that's a good point to conclude.

Alun Davies AC: —that boys and girls have that opportunity to be the stars of the future. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan AS: I would like to also echo my thanks to the clerks, my fellow Members, and everyone who gave evidence to us and to the engagement team. I certainly echo Alun Davies's point about the fact that this has been an inquiry that has raised our spirits in terms of watching people's passions and seeing a lot of the projects that are happening to ensure that there is better engagement with sport. I'd like to echo the points made by Tom Giffard in terms of the importance that we heard in terms of being able to enjoy sport, regardless of whether you're good at sport. It's a shock to you all, I'm sure, but I was never very good at sport in school. But, a person enjoys sport and having the opportunity to play, and I did have that opportunity. I do think that that was the saddening thing about this inquiry, was seeing how many opportunities are lost because of a variety of different reasons.
Certainly, in terms of the recommendations, we have to think about them in the context of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, that this is not just about sport, it's about participation and health and well-being, and it's also about preventing ill-health in the future because certainly, it's in a number of the disadvantaged areas that we see long-term health problems and earlier mortality rates because of obesity and so forth, and so, we have to look at this as not just expenditure on a sports portfolio; it has to be expenditure by the Government and an investment for future generations, and also that sport is for all ages, and some of the examples that we saw, in terms of the walking football and walking rugby, and how important that is in terms of community and bringing people together once again in the wake of COVID. So, this is something that's beyond the sports portfolio.
I'd also like us to look more broadly in terms of culture and participation in culture, because one of the other things that we heard from the witnesses was that things like dance can fall into both categories—coming through the culture portfolio or the arts portfolio, rather than sport, but that is also something that we need to look at in context.
And I think one of the major things that was raised by Tom Giffard is: what is the point of investing in first-rank facilities, and twenty-first century schools in particular, if not everybody who wants to use them can reach them, if it's only those who have parents or carers who can take them there that can use them and get benefit from them. And that certainly came over very clearly.
I'm sure that we all, as a Senedd, agree that everyone should have the opportunity to take part in sport, whether that's for fun or at a professional level, and this report clearly shows that this is not happening and that not everyone who can go on to the highest level is having the same level of opportunity at present. The fact that access to facilities is a postcode lottery is something that we have tackle, and Alun Davies was completely right—that's not something I say very often—but in this context, he was absolutely right in terms of the geographical element. Of course, there are problems in terms of rural Wales, but this is a broader problem, and we do have people, in the region that I represent, in terms of South Wales Central, who have those barriers, so it's not just about geography.
I also think that we need to note the evidence of Swim Wales, which noted that the majority of the about 500 swimming pools in Wales are located in south Wales, and also note things in terms of increasing costs in terms of keeping swimming pools going. That's not just about sports—that's a skill that can save lives, and we have to think about ensuring that people who leave school can all swim as a critical life skill. So, one thing that we need to look at further is in terms of ensuring that cost or a lack of public transport is not a barrier to participation.
I'd like to draw attention to the point that came over in the research in terms of girls in particular and ensuring that everyone, regardless of their background or their ethnicity, feels comfortable and feels confident in terms of participating in sport. We had a very good example from the Welsh Rugby Union regarding what they've been doing with period products and ensuring that appropriate resources are provided. Those things are so important, and I think there are very good practices happening because of this.
I have to admit that I'm disappointed with the Government's response to the recommendations, with only five of the 12 being accepted, and I would hope, as I mentioned, that this is something that does need to be owned by the entire Government if we want to ensure an improvement in the opportunities for young people and people of all ages to engage with sport. And I do hope that the Deputy Minister does commit to continue to co-operate with the committee in terms of scrutinising and taking action on this report and collaborating with other Ministers to ensure that sport is for everyone, regardless of their background and wherever they live in Wales and whatever level they play at. Thank you very much.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I'd also like to thank all the committee staff and all the organisations that took part in giving evidence for the report.
I think the stand-out message is that sport should be a level playing field, but there are many hurdles that need to be overcome to achieve that.Deprivation is a formidable opposition in all aspects of governance, and sport is no exception to the rule. As was said by Tom Giffard earlier, the average amount spent in deprived areas on sport is £1.50 a week, whereas it's £10 in more well-off areas. The cost-of-living crisis will make it even harder for families to afford for their children to participate going forward, and one interviewee expressed how hard it is to watch children have to sit out because their parents simply cannot afford for them to play. This can have a significant impact on a child's confidence as well as their mental well-being. I'm grateful to the Welsh Government for the support provided through the pupil deprivation grant for their £100 uplift, which has become an essential helping hand to get PE kit and equipment this year.
But the crisis doesn't just hit families. It also has an impact on sports providers themselves. As the Welsh Sports Association explained to us, energy costs and resources at swimming pools, chemicals, and staffing costs are all becoming really expensive, and I'm really concerned about closures of these going forward. Swim Wales noted that, of around 500 pools in Wales, the majority of them are located in the south, and therefore access in the west and north Wales is dependent on travel, as was mentioned earlier. Access to sports needs to be made available within easy reach of our communities, close to where people live. It's so important. And as the Deputy Minister explained during the evidence session, school facilities can bring huge benefits to the local community, ensuring all local residents can enjoy state-of-the-art sporting facilities where schools have received funding from Welsh Government, and that's been really important to keep schools as community facilities, offering sport in local areas.
I think it's important that Sport Wales has carried out a facilities snapshot across different local authorities, and that broadly outlines the provision of facilities in the area attached to schools, and that Welsh Government has also commissioned a baseline survey of schools, which has included questions about the use of the facilities. So, that's been really useful in noting and logging all those. Over the weekend, we heard about Welsh rugby and football and the importance of investing at grass-roots level, and we need to enable access to all and develop pathways for development within each sport. I hope the opening of school facilities to the wider public will help make that a reality, as well as the continuing of capital support through the community facilities programme grant. I know that funding was really useful for enabling Rhyl rugby club to move, and other community centres, as well, to be able to continue to offer sports facilities. And although it's not specifically aimed at sport facilities, grass-roots clubs can apply for this.
It's also important to remember, however, that strong leadership at grass-roots level is just as important as access to these facilities. Coaches and trainers are role models who inspire the next generation of athletes and encourage participation and dedication, so the network of volunteers we have here in Wales is the driving force between local sports clubs up and down the country. As one participant in our evidence sessions explained, volunteers are,
'priceless and the unseen work they do in supporting participation in sports is unbelievable.'
It's these volunteers who are working hard to tackle the impact of rising costs, and it's to them we owe so much gratitude for delivering the mental and physical benefits of participation that sports bring to so many people. Thank you.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'd just like to start by thanking the whole Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee—it's quite a mouthful—for their hard work and for undertaking this review, for the report, and its recommendations. I was personally delighted that you undertook this review, as this is a body of work that needed to be done, and, as chairman of the cross-party group on sport, it will complement the review that we ourselves are undertaking into the state of sporting facilities in Wales.
The report has unearthed some of the issues that we are also hearing in our CPG review, that there are multiple barriers that prevent those from disadvantaged areas from participating in sport and physical activity, and in many areas across Wales, including, as my colleague Tom Giffard has already said, suitable facilities, a lack of safe spaces, reductions in time allocated for sport, and a lack of disabled facilities. Wales, having participated in their first world cup for many years, which makes us all so proud, got there despite the lack of investment by the Welsh Government over the last two decades, not because of that support. It is nothing short of a national embarrassment to see the current state of many of our facilities in Wales, the unfairness of how investment hasn't been equal to all corners of Wales, and the dire lack of investment into our grass-roots sport.
Things are starting to happen, and I welcome that investment wholeheartedly, but it's small fry when you look at the financial investment into sport and facilities across the rest of the UK. We all know the enormous health benefits, both physically and mentally, that physical exercise brings, as well as a multitude of other benefits. A study commissioned by Sport Wales, undertaken by Sheffield Hallam University, said there is a massive social return on the investment, as, for every £1 invested in sport in Wales, there is a return of £2.88. Whether it be finally ensuring north Wales has that all-important Olympic-sized swimming pool, stadiums, or ensuring that sport doesn't grind to a halt in rural areas at the first sign of bad weather due to a lack of all-weather facilities—a massive barrier to participation during the winter months—now is the time for action. Demand is high, particularly following major sporting events like the world cup. Now we need to match that with investment. We all know that times are hard and money is short, but, with increasing demands on our health service, surely we need to start investing in prevention, as prevention is better than cure, and invest in our future generations, invest in everyone.
We've seen the FAW make a good start with this, as Tom outlined, but we need this awareness and investment across the board for all sports throughout all parts of Wales. I know the Minister is here today to respond to this debate and I, like many others, would appreciate a concrete commitment today ensuring that money or the wrong postcode won't mean another generation of Welsh people missing out on sport and physical activity opportunities that they can enjoy across the border. We must do better here in Wales. We have a Deputy Minister who appreciates sport, sees and knows the benefits, and I hope that this report will now kick start that large-scale investment that Wales needs to be made to finally ensure not that we just find, develop and retain future sports stars in Wales but ensure that everyone can have access in all parts of Wales, rural areas as well as cities, to sports across Wales, and importantly at all times of the year. Diolch.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'm very interested in this subject, and it's excellent that you've done this report. Regardless of your enthusiasm for team sports—football, rugby or anything else—it's vital that every child, regardless of ability or disability, gets to be able to (a) ride a bike and (b) learn to swim. Both are essential life skills in the same category as being able to cook a basic meal or tie your shoelaces. I want to put on record the wonderful work done by Pedal Power in Cardiff, for their work with disabled people. Based in Bute Park, it's not a super-output area of deprivation, but its specialist service provides pleasure and leisure to people young and old who may be unable to participate in other sport. So, it's a really important thing.
Turning to swimming, I appreciate the money that has been made available to extend schools into community hubs, but £24 million isn't really going to resolve the problem we have with our swimming pools. It's really, really difficult to teach somebody to swim unless it's in a swimming pool, and it is much more difficult to learn to swim as an adult. So, I was particularly interested in the evidence the committee took from Swim Wales, because, brutally, if you can't swim, you may drown, and there's no shortage of spaces to do that in any of our communities. So, we have 500 pools across Wales. I hear that there are fewer of them in north Wales, but it's good that 90 per cent of them have reopened post COVID, but up to one in 10 have not. And it would be really interesting to map exactly where those pools are and whether they are in areas of deprivation.
Just a footnote to Alun Davies: my community contains some of the poorest families in the whole of Wales; it isn't just Cyncoed and Penylan. So, one of the pools that has not yet reopened is Pentwyn pool. Cardiff Council took the decision to outsource most of its leisure centres a few years ago to a company variously called GLL—its origins are in Greenwich—or Better. Sadly, as far as the people of Pentwyn were concerned, better it definitely was not. Its staff never did any outreach to the local schools, which is one of the most obvious ways of increasing footfall, and the free swimming offer for children, funded by the Welsh Government, was not only not advertised, it was one of the best-kept secrets in Wales, and I used to have to go along in person before the long summer holidays to actually extract from them when and how families could take up the free swimming offer. It really was not an edifying experience. Better never advertised it, presumably hoping that people could get to pay again for what was supposed to have been funded by the Welsh Government, and it was only ever one hour a day at a particular time. So, when the lockdown was lifted, Better refused to reopen Pentwyn leisure centre, citing there was no business case for doing so. This pool is situated in a super-output area of deprivation, which means that most of the children living in families without a car are extremely unlikely to travel further afield to one of the pools that have reopened, because it's at least two bus rides away. I note the RCT initiative to make sure that bus routes serve leisure centres, and that's a really good thing to do, but, unfortunately, most of these families do not have the money for two bus fares any longer.
Temporarily—. I wanted to pay tribute to Steven Moates from Better, who temporarily was allowed to reopen the leisure centre to enable community and voluntary organisations to make use of its ground floor for things that they were able to self-fund. But, sadly, if only that attitude of reaching out to the community had been available earlier, we might not be in the situation we are in today. This excellent individual has now moved on to a new job, and the future of the Pentwyn leisure centre, including its swimming pool, is subject to the outcome of successful contractual negotiations between Cardiff Rugby and Cardiff Council. And this has been going on for months, and there's absolute radio silence, and I cannot know whether it's going to lead to a good outcome, but I fear the worst.
Swim Wales had warned the committee back in May that none of the currently closed pools are likely to reopen—victims of the impact of the loss of revenue from the lockdown. But I fear that most of them are in disadvantaged areas, and the picture is even more gloomy following the autumn statement on 17 November.
I think we need to really understand why it is that schools that children are leaving primary school without half of them being able to swim at all, and this is something that is so serious, because these children, as I said, can drown, and that is one of the key things that I need to understand—what we are going to do to prevent that happening.

Jenny, can you conclude, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: Also how we're going to heat our pools, because, unless we do, we're going to simply have to swim in the water that's heated by the sun, which, in this weather, is a rather challenging prospect.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I thank Members for what was a very interesting and important debate this afternoon? And in the time available to me, I'm clearly not going to be able to cover each and every point that was raised this afternoon. I will try to concentrate my comments specifically on the report and its recommendations, and I'll pick up one or two others as I go through. But I am very grateful to the committee and the support staff for the time and effort spent in producing this report, and also to those who provided evidence.
As I said to the committee, sport is vital to our national life. It's got a powerful influence on our national identity. It unites us as a nation and it gives us an enviable presence on the world stage, and, clearly, we've seen that in spades over the last couple of weeks or so, haven't we? And it would be remiss of me not to put on record my own huge thanks to Rob Page and the Wales team for their efforts in Qatar. It wasn't to be this time, and I know we were all really upset about that, but I just think this is the start of a very long road for our national football team, and we now look forward to the qualification for the Euros.
But sport has clearly a significant contribution to make in delivering our programme for government, with its reach and influence extending beyond the specific commitments on enhancing equal access, improving participation and building on our provision of sporting facilities across the country. In this context, working with Sport Wales, we will continue to lead the sector and encourage collaboration to nurture and facilitate a population increase in physical activity and to invest effort and resources where it is needed most—where there are significant variations in participation and where there is a lack of opportunity or aspiration to be active.

Dawn Bowden AC: I know the committee has had concerns about the number of recommendations that were rejected, so I’d like to use this opportunity to expand on the reasons why and also to reassure Members that it’s not because I necessarily disagree with the findings.
Recommendation 1 asks for a new national approach for participation in sport and physical activity in disadvantaged areas. I am not convinced that a new, wholesale approach is required. The reason for that is that Sport Wales’s vision and strategy for sport in Wales was, and continues to be, developed by the sector through an extensive consultation. One of the many important strands in the vision is to ensure that sport is accessible, inclusive and affordable, leaving no-one behind. This underpins a key message in the strategy, which is that every young person has the skills, confidence and motivation to enable them to enjoy and progress through sport, giving them foundations to lead an active, healthy and enriched life.
I’ve also made it clear to Sport Wales in their remit letter that I expect them to ensure the broadest range of vulnerable groups can engage with sport and physical activity and are not excluded from participation. This should include identifying and delivering specific opportunities that enable people in vulnerable or disadvantaged groups and those in underrepresented communities to benefit from sport and physical activity. Sport Wales, through its annual business plan, has responded positively to these objectives in the remit letter and it is right that they should be given the opportunity and the time to deliver against it. To respond to your points specifically, Tom Giffard, I do meet regularly with Sport Wales for updates and to review progress, and I will continue to do that.
Although not a specific recommendation in the report, there has been mention made about adverse health conditions, and I think it’s probably worth mentioning that the Welsh Government has committed to developing a national framework that enables delivery of social prescribing in Wales that is of a consistent, effective and high-quality standard. Sport and physical activity play a central part in delivering those goals, and that is predominantly in most of our deprived areas. In short, and I think as was acknowledged by Delyth Jewell, there is much good work going on already to address participation in disadvantaged areas, underpinned by the clear vision and strategy for sport in Wales, which, as I’ve said, came directly from the sector. A different approach now risks undermining the progress that has already been made.
Several of the recommendations touched on funding, and it’s worth pointing out that the majority of Welsh Government funding for sport is of course channelled through Sport Wales. I expect them to use their funding, and the funding that they receive via the National Lottery, to deliver the objectives set out in the term of Government remit letter, but it is also about the effective use of funding that is allocated to them. It’s worth repeating that we intend to invest more than £75 million over the next three years for Sport Wales to deliver those aims and objectives. This is in addition to support through other Welsh Government funding programmes, such as sustainable communities for learning and the community facilities programme, which were mentioned by Carolyn Thomas.
We’re also investing over £13 million in a range of programmes across 2022-24 as part of our delivery plan for our Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales strategy. But of course, funding isn’t solely a Welsh Government responsibility—sources such as the National Lottery, prize money from major tournaments and local authority budgets also have a role to play in providing support for disadvantaged communities. I have to acknowledge, as Heledd Fychan and others have pointed out, that there is a wider issue around deprivation that cannot be met by sporting investment alone. It is important that there is a whole-Government approach to tackling poverty and deprivation. Of course, we all know that we have been off the back of 10 years of austerity, we are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis and we are doing what we can as a Welsh Government, but the key levers to addressing some of those key factors are with the UK Government, and not with the Welsh Government. The committee did—

Alun Davies AC: Will you take an intervention on that?

Dawn Bowden AC: Indeed, of course I will.

Alun Davies AC: I accept the point you make about austerity. Clearly, you and I would agree and could spend the rest of the afternoon agreeing on it. But the Welsh Government has responsibilities as well on these matters, and the budgets that we are debating here today are budgets of the Welsh Government, and so I think it is important that the Welsh Government recognises its own role in addressing these matters and ensuring that we are able to provide the funds that our people need and deserve.

Dawn Bowden AC: I absolutely agree with you, Alun. What I'm saying, what I'm trying to lay out here today, is that from the Welsh Government's perspective in relation to what we are able to invest in sporting facilities, both revenue and capital, we are trying to maximise the budget that we have to deliver the most effective outcomes.
The committee also recommended establishing a pilot scheme similar to New Zealand's Active Me—Kia Tū programme, and I was extremely fortunate during my recent trip to New Zealand to see how the scheme operates. I was struck by the similarities to what we are already doing here in Wales. Our pupil development grant is designed to help eligible children cover the costs associated with the school day, including school sports kit and equipment, which is primarily what the Kia Tū scheme is about. But other interventions that are already in place that Active Me—Kia Tū is mirroring include our free breakfast scheme, our national physical activity group, and the universal roll-out of free school meals across all primary schools in Wales. We're also working across Government with the health and education departments to develop an active schools programme as part of a commitment as set out in our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy. I've already given a commitment to this Chamber to discuss the New Zealand programme further with Sport Wales to see what more we can learn from the Active Me project—

Minister, you need to conclude now, please.

Dawn Bowden AC: —and how it could be developed.
A couple of recommendations were focused on improving access to school and community facilities, and Members will be aware that the Minister for Education and Welsh Language has announced £24.9 million to support schools to operate and develop as community-focused schools, reaching out to engage with families and pupils, particularly those disadvantaged by poverty. This includes £20 million of capital investment to allow schools to develop further as community assets.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to mention the sports summit that will be taking place a week tomorrow. Since becoming Deputy Minister, I've been impressed by the collaborative spirit that runs through the sector. The summit will capitalise on this, as it aims to bring different expertise and experiences together to ask what an inclusive sport system looks like and what role we can each play in delivering it. We know there are still many challenges faced by people who want to take part in sport and physical activity, and I'm excited to see and learn from the sector in Wales what we can do to make even greater progress in tackling these issues. I'm sure that Members across the Chamber will support us in our efforts to do that.

I call on the committee Chair to reply to the debate. Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you to the Minister and than you to everyone who has participated in our debate this afternoon.

Delyth Jewell AC: Tom Giffard marked the timeliness of this debate and the need to support grass roots. Jack Sargeant had picked up on this in an intervention about the fact that engagement with sport—yes, we'd focused on participation—but audience, community engagement, going to see games, are so important as well. Tom, it was Baroness Grey-Thompson who'd made the point to us as a committee, and it was such a powerful point, that sport shouldn't just be about being good at sport, but people should be able to enjoy sport, not excel. That's a really powerful point, and I'm glad that you raised that.
Alun, I agree with you entirely about how enjoyable this inquiry was, because in spite of the really grim picture that we were seeing in so many ways, the passion that so many of the people that we spoke to feel for sport was absolutely inspiring. I agree as well with the point that you were making that when Wales on the world stage does well, it means so much, and that's something that, obviously, underpins so much of what we've been looking at as a committee.

Delyth Jewell AC: As Heledd also said, our inquiry did gladden our hearts, but also saddened us too. Heledd also mentioned framing this in the context of the well-being of future generations Act, and this is an issue that's been raised a number of times in the debate—I think that is something important to bear in mind.

Delyth Jewell AC: Carolyn spoke about the strain that energy costs are having on the industry, especially swimming pools, which Jenny had raised as well. Opening up facilities, I hope, will make a difference to levelling the playing field, but, as Jenny had talked about, there really is an ongoing acutely worrying issue with swimming pools—it's something that the committee will be keenly following. This really is a vital concern. As you were saying, this is an essential life skill. Thank you very much for your contribution as well.
Thank you, Laura, for your words. It's so useful to know that this is going to be taken up by the cross-party group as well. Investment does pay dividends. I think it was the Welsh Sports Association who pointed out to us in evidence that other comparable nations spend five to 10 times the amount that we do on elite sport, and that Wales does very well off a relatively small investment slice. So, that's something that it was interesting that you picked up on there.
I agree entirely with the Deputy Minister's words. I want to add our thanks as well to the Cymru team. They are an inspiration to us all. Your passion for sport is clear to see, and it is such a welcome thing to have that in you, Deputy Minister. On the point you made about our main recommendation, our concern as a committee would be that, if the policy isn't changing and the investment isn't going up, we wouldn't be sure how these really stubborn inequalities will be tackled.

Delyth Jewell AC: I know you made the point on the fact that Sport Wales does help the sector in drawing up a national vision, and Sport Wales, obviously, does such important work, but the Welsh Government actually instruct Sport Wales through its remit letter. At the moment there is a term-long remit letter, but as I understand it, there's nothing to prevent the Welsh Government instructing them to change course. That may be something that the Government could take into consideration in terms of the physical activity development grant and what you saw in New Zealand. It is exceptionally positive that you saw what was happening there, and we look forward very much to hearing more as your plans in that area develop.
In terms of funding, I would say—and I said this in opening the debate—if the Government really believes that sport can be the most effective preventative tool for the nation, then those actions have to meet the rhetoric. I think this is a tension that isn't going to go away.

Delyth Jewell AC: I do agree with the point that you made, Minister, that a whole-Government approach really needs to be looked at in terms of this, again connecting with what Heledd was saying about the well-being of future generations context to all of this.
A number of Members had made the point about how stubborn the barriers are that we're looking at, whether it's in terms of geography or in terms of the interconnected ways in which different inequalities will affect people's lives. Some of the stories we as a committee heard were sobering. We were reminded that the cost-of-living crisis doesn't just impoverish us, it can imperil us as well, both through making our lives less fulfilling and also in a more acute and worrying way. When budgets are tight, it can make us confront terrible choices. There are two really stark examples that stood out for me from our evidence that I'd to raise in closing.
Firstly, Sport Wales remarked that when food prices go up, some children will, anecdotally, not only be fed less, but this increase in food prices can mean that children do less exercise. Some families in desperation will have to stop their children from going to football club after school, from going to swimming, from going to hockey, not just because of how much the lessons cost, but because exercising makes us more hungry. They'll need more food that isn't there to feel full after practice. Some parents have to take those opportunities away from their children; they have to deprive them so that they aren't tormented by having empty bellies. That's a dreadful choice to have to confront.
Another difficult choice that arises from sport being more unaffordable relates in a very direct way to safety. This, again, came out of Sport Wales's evidence—the fact that more women will find it difficult to afford gym membership. We're going into the winter and it's dark before and after a lot of people's times of work, so women who can't afford to go to the well-lit gyms with treadmills will either not feel able to do that exercise or they'll have to go on pavements instead. The Chamber won't need me to remind you about how unsafe countless women feel, running after dark.
This crisis is making people confront these terrible choices, Dirprwy Lywydd, and they're not always obvious. The different parts of our lives interconnect, and more investment in sport in disadvantaged areas will help countless people's lives in so many ways.

Delyth Jewell AC: To close, everyone is aware that living a healthier and more energetic way of life has other great impacts, in terms of life expectancy, mental health, socioeconomic opportunities and educational attainment. There is evidence that the ways of living that we develop when we are children are likely to continue into adulthood. For these reasons, ensuring that we have fair play in terms of sports participation in Wales could have a dramatic impact on the lives of people from disadvantaged areas, and I would ask the Welsh Government to pay attention to our recommendations. I am very grateful to everyone who has taken part in our debate today, and I do hope that we will have more progress on this. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on petition P-06-1302, 'Protect Mid-Wales’ unique Cambrian Mountains: designate them an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty'

Item 7, a debate on petition P-06-1302, 'Protect Mid-Wales’ unique Cambrian Mountains: designate them an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jack Sargeant.

Motion NDM8146 Jack Sargeant
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the petition P-06-1302 'Protect Mid-Wales’ unique Cambrian Mountains: designate them an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty'which received 20,889 signatures.

Motion moved.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. Two thousand and twenty two marks the fiftieth anniversary of plans being drawn up to designate the Cambrian mountains as Wales's first national park. Those plans were never implemented. So, today, here in the heart of democracy, the Welsh Parliament—the people of Wales’s Parliament—is debating a petition submitted by Celia Brazell, which was signed by over 20,000 people who hope that they will not have to wait another 50 years for their landscape, their habitats and their lifestyle to be acknowledged and protected.
Deputy Presiding Officer, petition P-06-1302, 'Protect Mid-Wales’ unique Cambrian Mountains: designate them an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty', states, and I quote:
'The Cambrian Mountains: endless open skies, outstanding biodiversity, spectacular hills and valleys, 5,000 years' heritage of Welsh language, farming and mining. Their sense of immense space and peace is rare. Sadly, conservation of these uplands gets little attention. Farms are bought up for conifer planting or for large wind farms despite the lack of infrastructure. So beautiful a region needs protection and longer term rural employment. Designate the Cambrians as Mid-Wales’ first area of outstanding natural beauty.'
Members of the Chamber will be aware that Wales is currently home to four and a half areas of outstanding natural beauty: Anglesey, the Clwydian range and Dee valley, the Llŷn peninsula and Gower—all within Wales—plus the Wye valley area of outstanding natural beauty, which spans across England and Wales. We are also home to three national parks: the Brecon Beacons, Pembrokeshire coast and Snowdonia.
Under section 82 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, Natural Resources Wales can designate any area in Wales that is not already a national park as an area of outstanding natural beauty, if the area is of such outstanding natural beauty that it should be conserved and enhanced.
Now, I know that the Minister responding to the debate has extended an invitation to the lead petitioner to meet with the Welsh Government officials and also NRW officers, I quote:
'to discuss some aspects of the proposal to designate in greater detail.'
Myself and committee members are very much looking forward to hearing of any progress made in that area.
Llywydd, the Welsh Government’s programme for government includes a commitment to designate a new national park to cover the Clwydian range and Dee valley, and I know the Member on the opposite side of the Chamber, Darren Millar, will be particularly pleased about the programme for government decision. I know that he's been a natural supporter and keen advocate at times, calling for things such as a national observatory for Wales, and who knows what Mr Millar might see in those dark skies? I know that he in particular has laid questions to this very Senedd about unidentified flying objects in his time as a Member.
Llywydd, I do understand, though, that this work being undertaken by Welsh Government officials and NRW will be focus of officers' time for the immediate short term. But beyond that, would it be possible to look again at the case for the Cambrian mountains?
The Minister has also written to the committee noting that NRW, and I quote again:
'has also committed to undertaking an all-Wales technical assessment of natural beauty. It is intended that this will assess areas against the natural beauty criteria which will help to assess their potential need for future protection.'
The Cambrian Mountains Society has put its back into this campaign, collecting tens of thousands of signatures at events across mid Wales. A group of campaigners came down to the Senedd to hand over the petition on 4 October, and I very much thank Luke Fletcher, Joel James and Russell George for receiving the petition on my behalf and meeting with campaigners.
Now, I know that there are other areas of Wales that have an interest in designating their landscapes, too. My colleague John Griffiths has championed the Gwent levels in recent years. There have been wider proposals to expand the Gower area of outstanding natural beauty, and also to consider Y Berwyn. But for today, because 20,000 people have asked us to, we, the Welsh Parliament, are debating a petition putting the question forward for the Cambrian mountains. As the petitioners say, this is an area that is home to a wide range of biodiversity: birds of prey, red squirrels, otters, pine martens, butterflies, dragonflies, ladybirds and 15 kinds of dung-beetle.It's also home to the people who live and work on the land, passionate people who have led an impressive campaign to give their part of Wales a voice and the status they believe it deserves.
They say, in winding up, Presiding Officer:
'Give the Cambrian Mountains prestige, AONB branding and coherent management and watch the region flourish'.
Diolch yn fawr.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Jack, for bringing this petition forward for debate. In principle, the Welsh Conservatives support this petition. We recognise that protecting this unique area with its exceptional landscape is of national importance. We believe that the Cambrian mountains having area of outstanding natural beauty status will undoubtedly bring benefits to the area, helping to improve recognition for local brands and products, and will help provide further focus on community projects, such as tree planting, tackling invasive non-native species and improving biodiversity, especially in our peatlands. It will help in the management of conservation work and the preservation of traditional skills, and it will help with the training of local horticultural and land management skills. Furthermore, it will open the door to investment through the sustainable development fund and sustainable management schemes, which will help businesses within the AONB flourish.
However, I think it is wise, at this moment, to point out that, whilst we are in favour of designating the Cambrian mountains with AONB status, we have to be mindful that not everyone will be aware of how the status will positively impact them, and as with any change, communities can become nervous when they do not fully understand the implications for them and their livelihoods. We need to be acutely aware that the farming community within this proposed area will still need to make a living and manage the land to provide for us. Communities will still need housing, and younger people will still need a growing economy to support them. With this in mind, I would urge all interested parties who are supporting this AONB status to do their very best in communicating the positive impacts of it, to work closely with farming and other communities so as to better understand their concerns, and then to be mindful of these concerns when determining the final boundaries. Thank you.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you to Jack Sargeant for bringing forward this debate on the petition on the Elenydd mountains and the area down to the Mallaen mountain. I'm going to state today that we sympathise with the principle of protecting our land, particularly the nature and environment part of that land, but we mustn't forget the people and communities living there too. It's a concern that we've seen a decline in nature over the past 50 years, with species that were once common now under threat, and some having become extinct. That, after all, is why we have declared a nature emergency.
This area that we’re talking about today is alive with nature and we need to take steps to ensure its survival. But I fear that setting an area of outstanding natural beauty designation isn't the best way of doing that. The truth is that the purpose of an AONB is not to achieve these things. Indeed, if you look at areas that have designations such as AONB, sites of special scientific interest or national parks, you will see that they have lost a significant percentage of species over the past 50 years as much as any non-designated area. But, the new agriculture Bill, which has started its journey through the Senedd, now will look at the environmental and ecological needs. It is not by placing an AONB designation that will we tackle the nature emergency in the area, but by working in partnership with people who work the land, live on that land and enjoy the area.
I fear that campaigners talk specifically about concerns about windfarms; it’s worth noting people's concerns, of course, but setting an AONB designation to prevent such developments would be a misuse of that designation. That's not the purpose of the designation. If people truly are concerned about developments such as windfarms, then the forum to voice those concerns is through the planning process.
Now, AONB is not simply a designation; it has a status and expectations, and those expectations fall, to a great extent, on the local authorities in the area. Creating a new AONB would place additional financial pressures on Ceredigion, Powys and Carmarthenshire, and these counties are already facing grim financial times, so I doubt that they would welcome an AONB designation. The national parks and AONBs are short of the funding for monitoring and short of specialist staff too. Yes, we must improve the condition of our natural areas, and the best way of doing that is to introduce nature restoration targets to invest in habitats that are under threat, in monitoring and in specialist staff.
There is no doubt that this area is an area of outstanding natural beauty; it is glorious and full of history. The potential for developing a circular economy with tourist initiatives in local ownership are great. So, rather than a designation that sets an area in some sort of stasis, we'd much rather look at building on the good work that’s already being done. The Cambrian mountains initiative, which is a partnership between the three counties, has developed a community nature park looking at how to develop and promote the area by learning lessons from the regional nature parks in France, which protect nature, work with communities and develop economic opportunities in a way that respects the environment and the communities. The work of developing such schemes is already in the pipeline by the Cambrian mountains initiative.
So, setting a designation such as AONB is not going to benefit this area, and that's why we are opposing it. But we do believe that there is an opportunity to develop exciting plans in collaboration with communities and people living in the area that would enable people to live on the land to develop the local economy, whilst respecting and strengthening the glorious natural environment in this very special part of Wales.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: My thanks to the Petitions Committee for bringing this forward. I'm going to take a slight diversion, and that diversion runs from Chepstow to Conwy.
The idea of a Cambrian trail through the Cambrian mountains was first envisaged back in 1968, and the late Tony Drake, a legend in Welsh walking and mapping of these walks, in 1994, produced the first guidebook of the Cambrian way, which went all that way from Chepstow to Conwy, through the Cambrian mountains. Back in 2019, I joined with Oliver Wicks, Richard Tyler and Will Renwick—some of you will follow Will Renwick; he's known on Twitter as WillWalksWales—and Ramblers Cymru, to launch, with ramblers, the Cicerone guide to the Cambrian way, the definitive guide now to what is known as the 'mountain connoisseur's walk'. It's the equivalent of two and a half times the ascent and descent of Everest over, depending on how fast you walk it, two and a half to three weeks; two weeks if you really run it fast like Will does. And, in the last 18 months, my credit to Ramblers Cymru and volunteers who have waymarked the entire route. But this is a wild route; nobody should try this route without actually knowing what they're doing. The waymarking is not what you'd see on some other well-waymarked routes there. Four hundred and seventy-nine kilometres, the mountain connoisseur's walk takes in the Brecon Beacons, the great wilds of the Cambrian mountains and Snowdonia.
So, I stand, actually, Dirprwy Lywydd, to praise the wild and awesome—in that literal sense of the word 'awesome'—beauty of the Cambrian mountains. Now, I was born and brought up in Gowerton. My playground as a young man through my teenage years and early 20s, was actually the Gower; that's where I was brought up. It was the first ever area of outstanding natural beauty in the whole of the country. I used to delight in telling UK parliamentary colleagues this: 'Do you want to see where AONBs started? It was in Wales. It was in the Gower.' And, of course, I understand how such a designation can help preserve the very best of a landscape, but, importantly and critically, can also maintain living communities as well. These have to be vibrant, vital communities—the point about not just agriculture, but tourism and other uses within that area.
Now, I've also taken through, with my good friend Hilary Benn, a Bill that created the South Downs National Park—the first for three, four decades that we created—so, I understand the careful balancing of decisions and, indeed, quasi-judicial decisions, the nature of such decisions that face Ministers, and how this must be based on very strict criteria and really good engagement, as well, with communities and stakeholders. So, I am interested in hearing more about the Welsh Government's work on designations—critically, the management of designations, because it's not just giving something a label; it's how you then manage that and work with people—and actually how we bring this up to date in view of things such as the climate and the biodiversity crises too. So, not just old designations fit for the last century, but modern designations as well that take into account what's happening in our country.
And finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, this is not a competition. When I stand on top of the Bwlch mountain in my constituency, and I stand on the Devil's Pulpit, as I do, looking down across Nantymoel and Ogmore vale, there is no place closer to heaven than that. It's not a competition, but my congratulations to the petitioners. You've started a debate now that is bigger than the Cambrian mountains alone.

I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to begin by thanking the petitioners who raised this very important issue, and also to the Petitions Committee for its thoughtful consideration of the matter.
The Welsh Government fully recognises the vital role that areas of outstanding natural beauty and national parks play in Wales, and is supportive of potential new designations, where appropriate. AONBs, whilst perhaps sometimes seen as the poorer relation of national parks, offer many of the same advantages and protections. AONB teams are often skilled at convening a range of partners to deliver improvements for a landscape area. Arguably, because they have fewer statutory responsibilities such as planning powers, they can be more agile and focus on practical work on the ground. In recent years, we've recognised the power of AONBs to work closely with partners and communities and scaled up the amount of funding we provide to them. Through our sustainable landscapes, sustainable places and sustainable development fund schemes, we have funded a range of biodiversity, decarbonisation, tourism and community projects, totalling over £5 million for the last three years.
The Cambrian mountains of mid Wales are clearly an area of great beauty and tranquillity, as well as being of great importance for the Welsh language and for farming. The petition articulately sets out some of the qualities of this landscape, and I welcome this debate on its future.I'm sure colleagues are aware that the process to designate a new national park in north-east Wales started last year. I expect this to be the focus for efforts around landscape designation for the remainder of this Senedd term. Designation is an exhaustive and detailed process. We also have much to do to improve and empower current designations to contribute more significantly to combating the nature and climate crises. Our areas of outstanding natural beauty and our national parks will be key delivery agents as we seek to meet the 30x30 biodiversity target and improve much more of our land so nature can thrive.
We are, of course, facing climate and nature emergencies, and if we do not think differently about our future, for example taking responsibility for meeting our energy needs in more sustainable ways, these landscapes will not be preserved. This is why we are committed to increasing renewable energy generation. We need to work together as a nation to think differently and find solutions to the challenges we all face. Responsibility for recommending designation of AONBs and national parks rests with Natural Resources Wales. This is set out in legislation, both in the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 and the Environment Act 1995. It is important that the designation process, once commenced, is rigorous, objective and transparent. There would need to be a strong demonstration of support locally for NRW to commence the designation process, including from the relevant local authorities and local communities. I appreciate the petition the Cambrian Mountains Society has presented does indeed demonstrate a large amount of support both locally and nationally. However, it is not something I'm aware the area's elected representatives have campaigned on or the local authorities in the area have expressed a view on. Those views are very important to hear as NRW considers if it would be appropriate to look at designation for the Cambrians in the future.
It is also worth pointing out that a large percentage of the Cambrian mountains is already subject to strict protection. According to 2015 figures, 17 per cent of the Cambrian mountains are designated as a site of special scientific interest, with nearly 90 per cent of the SSSI area also designated under the European habitats directive as a special area of conservation, or a special protection area, or both. There are also several local and national nature reserves.
It would not be appropriate for me to agree to designate a new AONB here and now, but I'm open to a dialogue as we explore what we need and want from our landscapes. I'm very grateful to organisations such as the Cambrian Mountains Society, who work tirelessly to campaign for and promote the protection of some of our most cherished landscapes. I have asked my officials and officers from NRW to meet with the society to discuss their campaign in more detail. I understand a meeting has been scheduled for next week, and I would be keen to get feedback on that discussion. [Interruption.]

The Minister has finished. Sorry.

I call on Jack Sargeant to reply to the debate.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I start by extending my thanks to the Business Committee for scheduling this debate on the fiftieth anniversary of the initial plans and calls for the area of outstanding natural beauty? I also thank contributors. Joel James spoke in support, in principle, from the Welsh Conservatives, but also noted some of the concerns and what the campaigners would need to do to address them. Mabon ap Gwynfor had a slightly different view to Joel, but also offered solutions in another way to achieve the ambitions of our climate and biodiversity, and my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies also noted the biodiversity emergency and climate crisis by taking us on a diversion through the Cambrian trail. As chair of the cross-party group on beer and pubs, I'm sure he will take my recommendation next time he does it to stop by and try visiting some of the best breweries along the Cambrian way. I'm very happy to share the link of the Visit Wales website with him so that he can do that.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Are you paying?

Jack Sargeant AC: I might not. The Minister may, I'm sure. [Laughter.]
But, just responding to the Minister directly, if I may—Huw Irranca set me up very nicely there—the Minister did importantly note the work the Welsh Government are doing, the work NRW are doing, and the requirements that would be needed to accept a proposal of an area of outstanding natural beauty, in particular one to the campaigners that I think will be important for the campaigners, which is for them to get the views and perhaps campaign to and lobby the local representatives, the local authorities, because that's the important part, and that was clear in the Minister's response. But I do thank her and her officials for her openness and work, and thank her for working with the committee in that way.
In closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, once again, this is the people's committee—the people of Wales's committee. I thank the petitioners for engaging, the 20,000 plus people who signed, and diolch yn fawr iawn for hearing this debate this afternoon. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Objection? Yes, there is objection. Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Wales COVID-19 inquiry special purpose committee

Item 8 this afternoon is the Welsh Conservatives debate on a Wales COVID-19 inquiry special purpose committee, and I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Motion NDM8150 Darren Millar, Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 16.5:
1. Establishes a Wales COVID-19 inquiry special purpose committee.
2. Agrees that the remit of the committee is:
a) to identify where the UK COVID-19 inquiry is not able to fully scrutinise the response of the Welsh Government and Welsh public bodies to the COVID-19 pandemic;
b) to undertake an inquiry into the areas identified;
3. Agrees that the committee will be dissolved no later than December 2024 following a Plenary debate on its final report.

Motion moved.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the motion this afternoon, tabled in the name of my colleague, Darren Millar. Our motion today proposes that this Senedd establishes a Wales COVID-19 inquiry special purpose committee and agrees that the remit of the committee would be to (a) identify where the UK COVID-19 inquiry is not able to fully scrutinise the response of the Welsh Government and Welsh public bodies to the COVID pandemic, and (b) to undertake an inquiry into the areas identified. And I would like to try and avoid conflating two issues today. There is the subject of our motion—the special purpose committee—and also, secondly, the view that Welsh Government should have allowed a Wales-wide specific inquiry. And whilst I don't want to conflate the two, I think it's important that we set some context as to why we, as Welsh Conservatives, have tabled this motion today. The Government has continually denied the request for a Wales-wide inquiry, and they have done so in the knowledge that half the Members of this Chamber believe that there should be a Wales-wide specific inquiry. So do many health bodies and professionals across Wales as well and, most importantly, of course, the Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group, representing many of the people who have died in Wales from COVID-19.
Now, I have no doubt that the UK COVID inquiry will do their job at scrutinising the UK Government and its actions, but now we've seen the blueprint, we know that the inquiry cannot fully scrutinise the Welsh Government. We know this because, just this month, Baroness Hallet, who is leading the UK inquiry, has stressed the inquiry would not be covering every issue in Wales. That's what she said—the inquiry would not be covering every issue in Wales. And speaking at the inquiry press conference, she went on to say that,
'we will try to ensure that we cover all the most significant and important issues'
but,
'we can't cover every issue, we cannot cover, or call every witness, we are going to have to focus on the most significant and the most important decisions.'
And we also know, a month into the lockdown, the First Minister said,
'We will do the right thing for Wales at the time that it is right for Wales and we won’t be doing that by looking over our shoulders at what others are doing.'

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Russell George AC: The Welsh Government has made its own decisions, and at times very different decisions, and it's entitled, of course, to do that, but I would hope the First Minister would accept there should be scrutiny and accountability for those decisions that were made. And we know that the UK inquiry is not able to do that. So, I hope the First Minister will be able to set out why, if he does remain so confident, there is no requirement for further scrutiny and accountability of the Welsh Government's actions.
Llywydd, I want to just be clear on the need for this committee to begin its work sooner rather than later. It is essential that the special purpose committee, as proposed in our motion, works not only with the UK COVID inquiry, but also the various teams that have been set up across Government and the public bodies to provide the inquiry with the information, and I fear that vital knowledge that is being built up in these teams will be lost if the committee were to wait to commence their work. And it appears clear to me that the committee's work in identifying the potential gaps in the inquiry could easily take place alongside the UK's timeline, examining in real time the areas that won't be covered. However, the committee will also be able to use the modules outlined in the inquiry to explore early potential missing areas and can begin to start to collect relevant data and information, and of course the committee will be able to operate, being fluid and agile in its work.
I want to just read out a statement in my opening comments here, Llywydd. It's a statement that was provided by the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group, ahead of the debate today. These are their words:
'We welcome this action by opposition parties. The Welsh Government has had every opportunity to hold a Wales specific Covid inquiry but has chosen not to. The First Minister assured us that Wales being in the UK Inquiry was the right thing despite devolved-decision making. However the UK Inquiry cannot cover the issues in Wales in detail and in the way that he said he wanted. All we have ever wanted is what went wrong for our loved ones to be acknowledged and for lessons to be learned. Our concerns about the UK Inquiry are coming true and the First Minister has not challenged this. Ultimately we deserve a Wales specific judge-led inquiry. Sadly we’ve been denied this in Wales, therefore this committee will at least help ensure some detailed scrutiny of Wales that the UK Inquiry will not cover.'
So, I hope that that statement from the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group—. I hope the First Minister, in responding to this debate today, will be able to comment on their statement as well, as well as some of my other opening remarks. Thanks, Llywydd.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I speak on behalf of Plaid Cymru as co-tabler of the motion. All of us in this Chamber represent people affected by this terrible pandemic: people who have lost loved ones, people who want to know that when this happens again—hopefully not in our lifetimes—that Wales can be prepared, as prepared as possible, and as well armed as we possibly could be to make the right decisions next time.
It was obvious we would need an inquiry. We called for one. Welsh Government agreed. But it turns out we were talking about two very different inquiries. For us, it always had to be a Wales-specific inquiry, running side by side with the UK one—why not? There were indeed decisions that were Whitehall based that affected all of us, and areas of shared responsibility too, but so many decisions were rightly taken wholly in Wales by Welsh Ministers, who were held to account here in this Senedd. Budgets were set in Wales. People were treated by dedicated staff in the Welsh NHS. Thousands died across the health and care sectors in Wales. We could only scrutinise those actions properly with a Wales-specific inquiry.
But the Labour Government chose to opt out of that forensic level of scrutiny, choosing instead to leave it all in the hands of whatever inquiry Boris Johnson, at the time, decided to establish. And that, I have no doubt, did a disservice to the people of Wales, the COVID bereaved, and all of us wanting to ensure that lessons are learnt. In March this year—I quote from the Welsh Government's website—the First Minister said that 'concerted representations' had been made
'to the Prime Minister to ensure the experiences of people in Wales will be properly and thoroughly reflected in the inquiry'.
In April, he said:
'I'm pleased to see that there are already strong signs that the inquiry...will be committed to ensuring that the inquiry is conducted in a way that is accessible to people in Wales, and provides them with the answers that they want.'
But it's the chair, Baroness Hallett herself, that gave us the reality. When asked at the start of the inquiry about the level of scrutiny that could be given to issues relating to Wales, she spelt out clearly that she cannot cover every issue. But we have to try to.
Now, whilst I'm still of the view that we need a Welsh inquiry, today's motion offers a pragmatic alternative. Some have suggested that a committee of this Senedd could hold a full Welsh inquiry—I have some concerns about capacity for that—but this motion does spell out what could be done. If the UK inquiry cannot possibly cover all issues, let us do the gap analysis, if you like; identify what isn't being given the scrutiny it needs, and then focus on seeking answers around those issues. What possible objection could Government and Labour Members have to that? They tell us they agree with the need for answers, that we need to learn lessons. Well, here's a way, cross-party, using the parliamentary tools at our disposal as a Senedd.
We know what some of the gaps are. We can already get to work. Some elements relating to Wales aren't even in the scope of the UK inquiry. The Welsh Government didn't even challenge the fact that there was no Welsh element to the preliminary hearing on module 1 on pandemic preparedness. Looking at the timetable, it's clear there won't be time—

Talking about time, you are going to have to draw your comments to a conclusion here. The allocated time in tabling this debate, by the Conservatives and yourselves, is 30 minutes, and therefore—[Interruption.] You have restricted yourselves in the amount of time you have allocated to this debate, and you are restricted yourself as well, Rhun. So, bring your comments to a conclusion.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Quite simply, decisions taken in Wales need to be scrutinised in Wales, and we ask everybody to support this motion today as a means of ensuring that. Thank you.

Mark Isherwood AC: Although the UK Government announced an independent public inquiry into its handling of the COVID-19 pandemic in the UK in May 2021 and, three months later, the Scottish First Minister announced the creation of a Scotland-focused investigation into the impact of Scottish Government decisions on how the pandemic was handled, the Welsh Government has repeatedly denied our requests for an independent public inquiry into the handling of the pandemic in Wales.As one constituent told me,
'I lost my father to COVID-19 in November 2021. He was released from hospital into my care around four hours before passing away at home. I've been astounded that the Welsh Government have refused their own inquiry into the handling of the pandemic.'
After breaking his femur in November 2020, another constituent, Mr John Evans, was ambulanced to Wrexham Maelor Hospital, where he caught COVID after being placed in a ward next to a patient who was continually coughing. He died in June this year, following damage caused by long COVID to his brain stem, spinal column, heart and lungs and the original injury of thigh and leg. As his widow, Mrs Kathleen Evans stated,
'There needs to be an inquiry in Wales as to why, why, why so many people died in Welsh hospitals—people like John, who followed Mr Drakeford's and the Welsh Government's guidance and were failed despite doing everything correctly.'
The cross-party group on hospice and palliative care will shortly launch the report on our inquiry into experiences of palliative and end-of-life care in the community during the COVID-19 pandemic. We received evidence showing, for example, that healthcare professionals in Wales were more likely to experience medication and staff shortages relative to other areas of the UK.
On 28 April 2020, the UK Government announced that COVID testing would be extended to all care home staff and residents in England. In Wales, the First Minister said he saw no value in providing tests to everybody in care homes at that time. That was a pivotal moment for Mr and Mrs Hough, who ran Gwastad Hall nursing care home in Flintshire. It was not until 16 May 2020 that the Welsh Government brought in blanket testing for staff and care home residents. Five days later, Mr Hough killed himself. Twelve of their residents had died in those first few months of the pandemic. I subsequently asked the First Minister how he justified his continued rejection of the call by care home professionals for a Wales-specific public inquiry.
Our call today for the establishment of a Wales COVID-19 inquiry special purposes committee therefore presents an opportunity for the Welsh Government to show that they are not afraid of accountability to people in Wales.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I remember in March 2020 sitting in the leader's office at Flintshire County Council, working out how we could send everyone to work from home and keep front-line services running. We were stunned and it was frightening for our workforce. Initially, I spent time collecting PPE of any type from playgroups, schools, businesses and volunteers who had been printing 3D face masks. Flintshire care homes and domiciliary care staff were desperate for any form of PPE. Orders they'd placed for PPE were being unfulfilled, and I was told that Public Health England were diverting all PPE to their collection points and that they would then be distributed to Wales. I contacted Airbus, because I knew a flight of PPE was coming in, and I was then told it was all going to UK Government to then be distributed and we had to wait.
Track and trace in Wales was done through local government, who were the experts, and used to tackling outbreaks of viruses and diseases. It was delivered at a fraction of the cost of England's, which was done through private companies, costing billions, with very poor success levels. I think there was a 90 per cent success rate in Wales through local authorities, whereas in England, it was 65 per cent on average. There was excellent partnership working between the Welsh Government and local authority leaders and chief executives, with weekly engagement.
The UK Treasury wasted £8.7 billion of public money on PPE it couldn't use; almost as much as the entire annual spend of NHS Wales. A further £4.3 billion of money was fraudulently stolen from COVID-19 support schemes and was casually written off. Much of the unsuitable and unusable PPE was supplied by companies that were fast-tracked by Tory MPs and Ministers to obtain contracts for which they were unsuited to deliver, and some of these companies saw profits grow by billions. I'm saying this because this money could have now been used to pay for nurses' wages, for the recruitment of social care workers, to fill the black hole caused by rising energy and inflation costs. [Interruption.] It does matter, because it matters now to what we're able to provide for people that are sick now.
By having a UK-wide inquiry, it will be more rounded. The UK Government will have the powers and resources to be able to mobilise all the necessary information—[Interruption.] I only have three minutes—and powers needed to interrogate it. The Welsh Government is disclosing hundreds of thousands of documents to the inquiry and I want to know why certain cohorts were more impacted: BAME communities, people who lived in deprived areas. My daughter caught COVID when she was 12 weeks pregnant and then developed a heart condition that made her collapse. I wanted to know whether that's because she was pregnant or because of COVID; we still don't know. However, once the UK inquiry report is published, the Senedd should then be able to analyse it and further consideration should be given to setting up a Senedd committee to conduct its own inquiry in those areas that need further scrutiny. Diolch.

Gareth Davies AS: Dear me. Talk about out of touch.
We've heard time and time again in this Chamber about the need to expand the Senedd to promote scrutiny of the Welsh Government, but when it comes to promoting scrutiny now, the Welsh Government simply deflects and says they have moved on. But the people of Wales, the grieving loved ones of the COVID victims, the children who missed out on their valuable education, and those who had employment and financial worries have not moved on.
The Welsh Government's refusal to hold an inquiry shows that scrutiny is not its priority, but an expansion of its own power over the people of Wales. Freedoms were lost during COVID and sacrifices were made, and it falls on the Government to allow its actions and why it made the decisions it did be known to the Welsh people. The First Minister can't have it both ways, by having full responsibility over COVID regulations in Wales and then hiding under the UK-wide inquiry. He must stop hiding and take some responsibility and show some true leadership.
The Conservatives, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats often disagree in this Chamber over the most pressing issues facing Wales today, but our coming together on this matter shows that it goes beyond party politics and ideology, and it's about doing the right thing by the people of Wales. So, I urge Labour Members to look beyond party politics, or history will look on this place with contempt of deflection of allowing elected Members to understand the Welsh Government's decision-making process. Thank you.

Jane Dodds AS: This issue really does bring up so many emotions, doesn't it, really? Many of us know people who've been affected, many of us have met people who've been directly affected, and it's really important that we remember that for many of those families who are still living with the loss and the pain, this is still really there. And I'm not saying this proposal or an inquiry in London will actually get rid of that, because it won't, but it will—and we know and we've heard—help people to move on slightly.
Now in Wales, we did things differently. We did some good things. Carolyn's talked about some good things, and I do praise the First Minister for many of the decisions that were made here in Wales, and, really, it marked us out as a nation, making decisions that were for the good of the people. So, whilst I'm supporting this motion, I disagree with some of the sentiments here. I don't believe you are hiding from anything at all, First Minister; you are here and you're going to speak to this. But I would appeal to you to think again.
That's what happened to me. At the beginning of this discussion, back around a year ago, I actually opposed a Welsh-specific inquiry, and then I met with Anna-Louise Marsh-Rees who lost her father and has set up Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru. She persuaded me that she and her group actually wanted a Welsh-specific inquiry, and I changed my mind. So, I appeal to you this evening, and to my Labour colleagues, to think again and change your minds. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Heledd Fychan AS: I would like just to emphasise at the start, though we are co-submitting, I think we are coming at this from different perspectives, and, for me, I do support what Rhun ap Iorwerth said about an independent inquiry in Wales. I think Scotland does show the way in terms of what we need to be able to scrutinise, because the impact of COVID is still felt in all of our lives now. Yes, it is about justice for those that lost loved ones, but it's also about the challenges for the workforce, the fact that we now see the NHS on its knees, that we see the mental health impact on young people continued now, all because of COVID. What Scotland is doing is looking at every element and learning lessons—learning lessons so that, when we will be in this situation again, because we know that pandemics are going to be more frequent with the impact of climate change, we are in a position to be able to deal as best we can.
None of us envied the First Minister's role. Certainly, I was not in this Chamber when COVID struck, and I remember watching the news and thinking how difficult it must be for Welsh Government. This isn't about apportioning blame. Inquiries are also about learning about what we got right and ensuring that those lessons are also part of this, because some decisions were the correct ones and made a difference and meant that some people are still alive today, and they wouldn't have been if those decisions had not been taken. But how do we learn the lessons without an inquiry?
I would ask: if we are not willing to have an independent inquiry relating to COVID-19 and the biggest challenges any Government in this Senedd has faced since our establishment, then in what circumstances will we ever see an independent inquiry by this Welsh Government? Certainly, for me, it is the fact that South Wales Central saw the highest proportion of deaths, and we know that that continued impact of ill health is still very much felt.
It is from the words—. The Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru are not coming from a party political viewpoint; these are their lived experiences. They have shared harrowing stories with each of us, and none of them—none of them—are trying to embarrass the Government. They just want to know: could anything have changed things for my relative? Could anything have been different? For Catherine, who shared with me on Twitter:
'My father died in a care home...saying goodbye to him thru a window with him stretching his arms to me to help him will haunt me forever',
for the sake of my loved one who died as a result of catching COVID in hospital and all others who've similarly lost loved ones, the learning must be taken by a Wales-only COVID inquiry to try and ensure that learning is taken and similar situations don't arise again. We need scrutiny here in Wales for decisions taken in Wales. We need an independent inquiry. This is a compromise, but it's very much needed.

I call on the First Minister, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. The pandemic touched the lives of everyone in Wales, but none more so than those many families who lost a loved one to this awful virus. It is absolutely necessary, for the reasons set out by Jane Dodds and others, that the questions that those families have are properly scrutinised and answered. But the way in which that is best done—indeed, the only way in which that can be fully be done—I continue to believe is through a UK COVID-19 inquiry.

Mark Drakeford AC: That is the body that will be able to scrutinise those decisions made by the Welsh Government and other Welsh bodies, which drew on the relationships between decisions made in Wales and Whitehall, the scientific advice that was received, not just in Wales, but at a UK level, the often complex funding streams that shaped the decisions that were made, procurement decisions, guidance decisions, that plethora of issues that crossed the border between Wales and the United Kingdom every single day and which only a UK-wide inquiry will be able to scrutinise, and on which only a UK inquiry will be able to provide answers to the questions that people, including those families, very properly need and deserve to have answered.
And the reason why the UK inquiry is able to have that forensic look at the decisions that were made in Wales is because of the way we worked with the UK Government to make sure that the terms of reference of that inquiry will provide—[Interruption.] No, I’m not taking any interventions. The reason why the UK inquiry is able to do the work in the way that it will be able to do is because of the agreement we made with the UK Government so that, as the Prime Minister of the time, Boris Johnson, said, it would guarantee that the UK inquiry would have a significant Welsh dimension to everything that it did. And I think the way in which the UK inquiry is going about its work already demonstrates that commitment: the way in which it works through the medium of the Welsh as well as the English language; the first place Baroness Hallett visited was to come here to Wales, and she herself has met with members of the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice group here in Wales.
And the work of that inquiry has already started. We in the Welsh Government are already in receipt of a series of complex requests for information and for statements, all of which we will provide, and we are already in the process of selecting and sharing the relevant material from the nearly 10 million documents that we have identified as in the possession of the Welsh Government alone that relate to the two years of the pandemic. Our responses and statements will help the inquiry to make the enquiries that it is committed to making about the way in which the pandemic was dealt with here in Wales.
Llywydd, let me address today’s motion directly. It suggests that a Senedd committee should consider aspects of the COVID experience in Wales that might not receive sufficient attention by the Hallett inquiry, and let me be clear that, if that concern materialises, then the motion’s central proposal, a special purpose committee, is one that the Government can and will support. What I had hoped to do was to lay an amendment this afternoon that would have allowed the Senedd to focus on how and when it would be possible to identify any unanswered questions or areas of incomplete scrutiny so that the work of a special purpose committee could be focused on that, on those gaps. Now, I’ll think carefully about the points I’ve heard made in today’s debate, Llywydd, but the most straightforward approach would be to receive the Hallett report, then to see if and when and where any gaps have emerged, and then to allow a special purpose committee to discharge the remit suggested, which is to fill in any gaps should the UK inquiry not be able to answer them for Wales.
Now, unfortunately, we’ve not been able to make that way of proceeding debated this afternoon, and, for those reasons, the Government side will have to vote against the current motion. However, we will do so in order to bring forward our own motion for debate in Government time. That motion will accept the case for a special purpose committee on the basis that I have set out this afternoon, and will allow the Senedd to give our proposals its full consideration.

I call now on Andrew R.T. Davies to respond.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I'd like to thank everyone who's contributed to the debate this afternoon. A debate was tabled not because we lack faith in the UK inquiry—we do not—and that has been echoed by many speakers today, that the UK inquiry is an important vehicle for us to understand how decisions were taken, to test those decisions and to come to a conclusion on the outcomes of those decisions.
And on that point, I agree with the First Minister that the UK inquiry is an important vehicle that the Welsh Government and, indeed, others within Wales need to engage with. But, as the Scottish Government has highlighted, it is possible to run a Scottish-specific inquiry in parallel with the UK-wide inquiry to get to the nub of this here, which is things were done differently in Wales, as they were done in Scotland.
We do need, as speaker after speaker emphasised, a separate inquiry route, and, in this case, the motion seeks permission for the Welsh Parliament to form that special purpose vehicle. Surely, that's what we should be doing as parliamentarians: looking at the most momentous decisions, as other speakers have touched on, that have ever been taken by a Welsh Government and Welsh civic society.
This isn't about deflecting from the UK Government and some of the decisions they've taken, as the Member for North Wales on the Labour benches highlighted; the UK Government do need to be held to account, and ultimately look at decisions that were good and bad, quite rightly so. But, as we've heard from the chair of the UK-wide inquiry, there are areas of the inquiry that they will not be able to look at as closely as they would like on Welsh decision making.
When you look at the structures in Wales here, local government is quite different from local government in England. We have unitary authorities across the whole of Wales. They were important partners in delivering some of the Welsh Government's decisions and support measures that were put in place in social care, for example, and in education. The health service is structured quite differently in Wales, because of decisions that the Welsh Government have taken, to how it is structured in England.
Those are unique positions that are taken here in Wales that we need a Welsh decision to look at, and that decision needs to be taken here this evening, ultimately to give empowerment to a committee to be formed by the Welsh Parliament. If we as parliamentarians cannot form a committee to look at these issues and report in a timely manner before the 2026 election, then what is the point of having a Welsh Parliament? That surely is the fundamental question here. If this is voted down and the Government use their Government votes to vote that down—.
And I implore the Labour backbench to consider that. As parliamentarians, you are being asked to vote down the ability to have a committee that would be in the control of Parliament, not a political party, in the control of Parliament—[Interruption.]—in the control of Parliament, not to defer—. [Interruption.] I've run out of time, sorry, Alun. I'll happily take the intervention, but—[Inaudible.]

If you take the intervention, I'll allow you more time.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'll take the intervention.

Alun Davies AC: There we are. You've heard the First Minister reply to the debate this afternoon, and I felt he made a very generous proposal in terms of working as a Parliament together on these matters. Would it not now be in the interests of this Parliament for opposition parties to discuss with the First Minister some of the proposals that he's made today, rather than to push this issue this afternoon? And Presiding Officer, I think Members on all sides of the Chamber would also want to know why the Government has been unable to table business.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I will happily work with the Government to facilitate this. My issue with the offer that the First Minister made was that he doesn't want to see that committee start its work until the UK inquiry has completed all its streams of work. That is some considerable time in the future, and I believe that this Parliament that sits here today—which has memory, corporate memory, of those decisions and the ramifications of those decisions—needs to be able to undertake its parliamentary work. As Russell George emphasised, a lot of those decisions are fresh in people's memories. That information is readily available, and the passage of time might muddy the waters in getting to the conclusions that we want to see on the good and the bad.
And that is my issue with the proposal that the First Minister has put before Parliament today, that it's to make it wait until the UK inquiry has finished its work in its entirety. So, I go back to the Labour backbench in hoping that someone on the Labour backbench might consider the proposals on the order paper. I'm sceptical that will happen, but I can always try. God loves a trier, and, as a Conservative, you can't accuse me of not trying. But, ultimately, we are a Parliament. It is our job to scrutinise what the Government does on the most fundamental questions of the day. The ramifications of the decisions that were taken on COVID-19 surely is the fundamental question that will dominate thinking going forward for parliamentarians and civic society—trying to understand what happened with those decisions, the ramifications of them, and the measures we need to take in the future. That's why I implore Members across this Chamber to support this motion today, because I think it would be positive not just for the people of Wales but the stature of the Welsh Parliament.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection, therefore I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Small businesses

The next Welsh Conservatives debate is on small businesses. I call on Paul Davies to move this motion.

Motion NDM8151 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that Small Business Saturday will take place on the 3 December 2022.
2. Recognises the vital contribution small businesses make in sustaining local economies, developing communities and creating jobs.
3. Calls on the Welsh Government to use the levers it has to better support small businesses in Wales.

Motion moved.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm pleased to move the motion, tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. As Members will be aware, next Saturday is Small Business Saturday, and it gives me great pleasure to open a debate on the importance of small businesses to Welsh communities and the economy. Now in its tenth year in the UK, Small Business Saturday returns with a mission—to support and celebrate the UK's 5.6 million small businesses, particularly as they face mounting economic challenges this winter. According to the Federation of Small Businesses' small business index, almost 35,000 small businesses in Wales are expecting to downsize, close or sell their business in the coming months. Therefore, I do hope that Members will support the campaign by visiting a small business or promoting a small business in their constituency or region, to help raise awareness of the benefits of buying local.
Today's motion rightly recognises the vital contribution small businesses make in sustaining local economies, developing communities and creating jobs. In Wales, small businesses make up 99.4 per cent of businesses, contributing 62.4 per cent of private sector employment and 37.9 per cent of turnover. But they are so much more than small enterprises. They are vital components of our communities and fundamental to our society too. The Federation of Small Businesses report, 'SMEs as the key to rebuilding Wales's economy and communities', makes it clear that, in times of crisis or need, small businesses are there at the forefront of their communities, bringing skills, capacity and capabilities to bear on social challenges. And that's entirely right. Small businesses are very much agents of social change, and we see that right across Wales, where businesses are doing incredible things to support local projects and good causes.
Therefore, it's vital that Governments at all levels are working together to best support our small businesses and provide them with the conditions they need to help them flourish and grow. The Welsh Government must look at how it can reduce the business rate burden here in Wales, through measures such as the reinstatement of the 100 per cent rates relief holiday, for example. We know that Welsh businesses pay the highest business rates in Great Britain, and that business rates are one of the top costs for small businesses. That's why the Welsh Government must ensure that its business rates position is not one that is regressive, but instead supports aspiration and business growth. The next non-domestic rates revaluation will take effect on 1 April 2023, based on property values as of 1 April 2021, meaning that the rateable values should reflect the impact of the COVID pandemic, as well as changes in the tax base since the last revaluation. And so, I hope the Welsh Government will use this opportunity to really reflect on the difficulties that the rates system is having on small businesses, and take the opportunity to make some positive change.
Of course, cost-of-living pressures are really hitting small businesses hard, and I know the Welsh Government has provided some support to help SMEs in Wales relaunch, develop, decarbonise and grow, to help drive economic recovery. That support is, of course, welcome, but businesses are telling us they need more support. The recent Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee report on cost-of-living pressures made it very clear that the Welsh Government needs to intervene financially to help businesses weather the current cost-of-living pressures in order to protect high-quality jobs. This could either be in the form of grants to the worst-affected businesses, or indeed as low-cost loans to support efficiency and sustainability projects. And so, perhaps, in responding to this debate, the Deputy Minister will tell us more about the actions being taken to address the recommendations laid out in that report.
Llywydd, small businesses are already reporting a rising cost of labour and skills shortages, and the Welsh Government must think innovatively about how we can best address this. It's crucial that employers, training providers and policy makers all work together to ensure the skills system delivers for individuals, businesses and the Welsh economy. I sincerely hope that the Welsh Government prioritises skills as an area that warrants much more time and attention going forward. Wales's small businesses are the lifeblood of our country, showcasing the very best of our nation, our innovation, our community cohesion and our people, and so this Small Business Saturday, I hope all Members will take the opportunity to celebrate our small businesses and show their support for this campaign.
The resilience of small businesses continues to be tested, and it's vital that the Welsh Government does whatever it can to lessen the burden and support our Small and medium-sized enterprises. Whether that's having a cuppa in a local cafe, buying an early Christmas present from a small shop or visiting your local butcher, there's a small business out there that needs our support. In my own constituency, I continue to be impressed with the high-quality produce that's on offer by many businesses, and I know that Members representing areas right across Wales feel the same. So, this Saturday, let's all redouble our efforts and champion our SMEs by buying and promoting local businesses. I urge Members to support our motion.

Luke Fletcher AS: As we approach Small Business Saturday, we have to recognise that we're in the middle of the worst cost-of-living crisis for 40 years. The impact on our small businesses will be severe. This is one of the main economic concerns facing small businesses at present, with 89 per cent of companies noting higher costs than a year ago. Small businesses won't have the reserves that bigger businesses have, and very often, they'll face higher costs because of their size. The impact will be worse on the Welsh economy compared with other places, as a result of a relatively higher number of small businesses. However, we have a unique opportunity here to tackle the cost-of-living crisis and the climate emergency at the same time and create an economy for the future. Small businesses are eager to help. They're eager to help reach the climate targets, but 76 per cent felt that they needed more support from the Welsh Government in this area. The Welsh Government should ensure that funding is available for the setting of solar panels and improving building fabrics, especially in the energy-intensive industries. This would not only reduce the costs for businesses and safeguard them better from changes in the energy market, but it would also help to deliver our net-zero targets and move to a greener economy.

Luke Fletcher AS: Llywydd, no contribution to a debate on small businesses in the run-up to Small Business Saturday would be complete without me taking the opportunity to highlight some of the fantastic local businesses in my region. Last year, I told Members about where I get my hair cut; well, different to last year, I now get my hair cut in Dappa Chaps in Pencoed by a fantastic barber called Fletch—no relation there whatsoever. But Dappa Chaps, alongside Mia Bella nail salon, did Pencoed proud in the Welsh beauty industry awards, both winning awards. Congratulations, of course, to both. [Interruption.] Go for it, Jack.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm not going to speak about haircuts now, and I don't get my nails done. But it's not just nail salons or barbers or hairdressers, it's actually things like tattoo shops, and I can tell you that I got my tattoo for the world cup in Purple Moon tattoo studio in Connah's Quay. Will you join me in congratulating those types of businesses as well?

Luke Fletcher AS: Of course, I'm more than happy to join you in congratulating them. Members will also be glad to hear that I still go to the Sandwich Co, another fine business in Pencoed, and, yes, I still order the Arnie sarnie. I'm a creature of habit after all. But for those who wish to sample a wider menu and are excited for Christmas, then please do try the Christmas cracker—turkey, stuffing, sausage, cranberry sauce, crispy bacon, shredded sprouts and the option to add pigs in blankets. #Dimproblem.
Another habit of mine, as I walk into the office from the train station, is to stop in Beat bakehouse at the bottom of Station Hill for one of the best coffees in Bridgend. I'm sure the Tories opposite would be delighted to know that they are taking over Suzy Davies's old office. I can't speak to what the quality of the coffee in Suzy's office was like, but I would wager that the coffee has improved substantially. Of course, no coffee is complete without a doughnut, and Whocult still remains for me the king of doughnuts. Since I last updated Members on Whocult, they've expanded substantially and are going from strength to strength.
Finally, Llywydd, as we head into Christmas, you might want to buy a gift for the Dirprwy Lywydd. Could I suggest looking to his constituency and getting him something from San Portablo, a clothing shop in Aberafan shopping centre that takes pride in Port Talbot? Small businesses are our communities. Yes, support them on Small Business Saturday, but also support them throughout the year.

Natasha Asghar AS: I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate and to highlight the vital importance of small businesses to our economy and also to our communities. In a fast-moving world where businesses will all seek the best opportunities, large companies have the advantage of being able to relocate to other regions and even other countries to take advantage of the tax breaks and other incentives should they so wish. In contrast, small businesses are embedded in the communities that they serve, and I've heard from many of my colleagues here today that they're supportive of that as well. For me, they're a vital part of the Welsh economy, providing jobs for over 62 per cent of the total workforce in enterprise employment here.
Small Business Saturday is about highlighting the importance of small businesses within their communities and to encourage more people to shop locally. But, before I talk about some of the issues they face, I wish to take this opportunity to praise the courage of those risk takers who decide to set up their own business in the first place, because it's certainly not easy. Once upon a long time ago, I wanted to set up my own cosmetics business, and the sheer investment was simply eye-watering for me, and it was an idea that I had to drop. The standard definition of an entrepreneur is, and I quote,
'a person who sets up a business or businesses, taking on financial risks in the hope of a profit.'
Risk takers in the business world risk their livelihoods, reputation, and even personal relationships to achieve their so-called end goal. From creating an app, to opening a shop, to launching a new brand, the fact is that all entrepreneurs have taken huge risks when deciding to set up their own business. For aspiring businessmen and businesswomen, the thought of eventually being your own boss in the long term outweighs the potential risks of failure. Entrepreneurs take calculated risks every single day, but possibly none is bigger than the initial decision to start a business in the first place. I believe, sincerely, from every ounce of my soul, that the Welsh Government should do all it can to support those risk takers and encourage small businesses to grow and to thrive. That means taking action on business rates. Business rates, rents and wages are the three largest outgoings for any small business. At a time when small businesses face unprecedented increases in their costs, as my colleague Paul Davies mentioned, politics aside, the Welsh Government should really follow the lead of the UK Government and provide further business rate relief. This would provide timely help to allow companies to focus on expanding their business and take on new staff.
Presiding Officer, this year marks the tenth anniversary of Small Business Saturday. It's a great opportunity to highlight the vital role small businesses play in their communities and, essentially, in creating jobs. But, we should also recognise and applaud the courage and enterprise of those who decide to set up their own businesses, because without them, we would be all the much poorer. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan AS: Meeting small businesses is always such an honour, isn't it, as a representative. Certainly, speaking to many last weekend around Pontypridd, the challenges that they're facing are astronomical in terms of those prices, still with COVID recovery. But also, because people have less money, there's less spend in those shops, and it is hugely, hugely challenging.
Another challenge for areas like Pontypridd—and this is true for many, many communities across Wales—is the challenge if they also face the fear of flooding. Many of you will recall in February 2020 the images of Pontypridd town centre under water, and many, many other communities. Of course, homes were devastated, but for those businesses it's incredibly challenging if not impossible now to be able to have insurance. If you're in an area affected by flooding and you have a house, you're able to access insurance via the Flood Re scheme, but no such scheme exists for businesses. Therefore, when we are considering in light of the climate emergency and knowing that the future of town centres like Pontypridd is going to be under threat, I would also like to ask the Government to consider, in terms of the levers to better support small businesses, what we do to support those businesses that cannot have insurance and that, if there is an option of insurance, cannot currently afford insurance, because this is then impacting them if anything goes wrong with their business in terms of their resilience. [Interruption.] Sam.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch. I'm grateful to you for giving away. I've challenged the climate change Minister on this exact point, because on the Quay in my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, businesses such as Quayside Orthodontics and Towy Works have suffered flooding. So, do you agree with me that businesses should be treated equally to residential areas when it comes to flood protection?

Heledd Fychan AS: Certainly. I completely agree with you. Seeing the devastation of those businesses—. Clwb y Bont only just recently reopened its doors. I was asked, on the day that it was opened, 'Is Clwb y Bont safe in the future, now?' Well, no, it isn't. If there's a small flood, yes, because there are flood protection gates there, provided through funding, but it wouldn't have helped if we'd have seen the amount of water that came during that fateful night.
I think for many, many businesses, they are still traumatised now by having experienced floods and, in some instances, having suffered multiple floods. I think Sioned Williams recently relayed, in terms of her region, in terms of that example. So, I think we do need to look, in terms of resilience; it's not just the economic situation. But in light of the climate emergency, we need to do everything possible because small businesses and our town centres are what make communities. It's where people come together, it's where we are able to meet, enjoy and have a key role to play in terms of our climate emergency response. So, I'm very happy to be able to support this today, but also to put that plea, in terms of, please consider also those businesses that are at risk of continued flooding. They need our support as well.

James Evans MS: Businesses are up and down in my constituency, and they play a huge part in my community. I'd like to list them all, as Luke Fletcher did, but after my contribution last year, I had some e-mails from people who were quite upset that I didn't mention them, so I think it's probably best that I don't. Just to say, there are a number of businesses, north and south, east and west in my constituency, and they provide services, they create jobs, they create wealth and, in many cases, they are the social hubs of communities. There are a number of small businesses in the area that do that, and I was fortunate to go to the Powys business awards in Brecon barracks the other week, and it was fantastic to see so many businesses right across Powys that do an absolutely fantastic job of promoting Wales and promoting our area. And these are run by hard-working people who pour their life and their soul into these businesses. They're not hugely wealthy corporations and they don't have a huge amount of cash behind them, but they are hard-working people who provide jobs and important services, and it is those jobs for those local people that do support our local families. That's why it's crucial and it's important that our small businesses are supported, not just by the Welsh Government, but the UK Government as well, and all Governments right across the country in what is becoming an uncertain world, due to rising energy costs and commodity costs.
But there are concrete things that the Welsh Government can do around business rates, and I would like to see business rates lowered here in Wales to make our businesses more competitive, because many businesses that I speak to in my constituency say that they're at an immediate disadvantage to other parts of the UK and it also is driving people out of the high streets, because they simply cannot afford the rates that they have to pay. And I would like Welsh Government Ministers to recognise the wealth production and the job creation that these small businesses have, because they are the lifeline for many of our communities. Without these small businesses on our high street, they will simply die, and I'm sure that that's something the Deputy Minister doesn't want to see, that's something that I don't want to see, and I'm sure that nobody across this Chamber wants to see our high streets becoming an area where nobody is going and they just become derelict and deserted.
But what I want to see is more businesses; I want to see more of them being set up, more opportunities, more grants, more availability, more shops coming online for people to actually access these businesses. Because when business thrives, our public services thrive, because without their help to contribute to the economy, we cannot have the vital public services that all need. So, I would encourage every Member in the Chamber to get out and support Small Business Saturday and do your shopping there—ditch Amazon and join the high street.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I do very much welcome this debate to note the importance of Small Business Saturday and to, of course, recognise the vital contribution that small businesses make in sustaining local economies, developing communities and creating jobs. And as others have already said, SMEs are the lifeblood of the Welsh economy and make up over 99 per cent of Welsh businesses, accounting for almost 63 per cent of total employment.
And we could all show our support for local businesses by giving them our custom, and events such as Small Business Saturday are an important reminder that, by shopping locally, we can directly support our SMEs and ensure that a proportion of our money is invested straight back into our local economies. That's something that I've been doing in my constituency, as I know other Members have been, and what I will be doing in highlighting and promoting that this weekend. Like James, I'm not going to go down the road of listing all the wonderful businesses in my constituency, other than the hairdresser called Hairport that's been turning my hair purple over the last few months. But this also includes supporting our social businesses in Wales that do form a dynamic, diverse sector, which has demonstrated considerable growth over the last few years. Currently, there are 2,309 social businesses identified in Wales, which employ an estimated 59,000 people, and it's important that we learn from the values and the principles of social enterprises and co-operatives that have helped us through the pandemic to build that fairer, greener and more prosperous tomorrow, and that was something that was set out by Cefin Campbell in his short debate last week.
Now, I am proud of our track record in developing a strong entrepreneurial culture, and entrepreneurship and innovations are key to growing the economy in Wales. We're committed to nurturing entrepreneurial spirit in our small business owners and future generations, supporting the introduction of innovative technologies, new products and services to help businesses remain competitive, create jobs, and capitalise on opportunities arising to grow their businesses. Through Business Wales, the Welsh Government is actively focused on engaging and supporting our microbusinesses and SMEs, particularly those that are grounded in their local communities and are invested in Wales for the long term. That's why we are investing £20.9 million from 2023 to 2025 in our Business Wales service, to continue to ensure that businesses have access to the information, guidance and business support that they need to start, to grow and to prosper. This will build on the success of the Business Wales service that we've seen to date.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Will you take an intervention, Minister?

Dawn Bowden AC: Indeed.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I'm grateful to you for taking the intervention. It's accepted from across the Chamber that we all celebrate small business this Saturday, but sadly, today in the news—just reading it now—HSBC have confirmed 114 bank closures. If I think of my own local town of Cowbridge, one of the branches is there. There will not be a single high-street branch on the high street now, there won't be. Have you a view on that announcement, and in particular, what the Welsh Government might be able to do to obviously try and encourage banking opportunities for as many small businesses to access and replace the loss of service?

Dawn Bowden AC: It is a very real problem, Andrew, and I have it in my own constituency. There is not a single high-street branch now in the upper Rhymney valley, and we've now had to rely on mobile branches. So, Lloyd's Bank bring a mobile branch to Rhymney. I think, potentially, the answer is to look at a more hub-type of model for branches that can move around, but that is something that we really do need to discuss with branches, because there are so many people who don't have access to banking facilities; they don't all use internet banking, so we have to find some way of doing that. So, I am very sorry to hear that announcement, and we do need to try to find some solutions to that.
What I would say, however, is from the £20.9 million that we are investing, that is building on the success of Business Wales that we've seen to date.Since 2016, Business Wales has advised over 45,000 individual entrepreneurs and businesses, helping to establish almost 800 new enterprises and supporting businesses to create 32,500 new jobs. In terms of value for money, we know that every £1 invested in Business Wales can be linked to a minimum £10 and up to £18 of net GVA uplift per annum. And those businesses that have received support have a 77 per cent survival rate over four years, compared with the unsupported average of 33 per cent.
Now, the Welsh Government is also supporting small businesses with its small business rates relief scheme. And while we are doing all that we can to support small businesses, it is crucial that the UK Government honours its commitment and works to add value to Welsh Government interventions and to use the levers that it has to better support small businesses in Wales. Through the economic mission, we are taking bold action to support stronger local economies and the essential job of tackling poverty. And I hear what Heledd Fychan has said about flooding and the inability of local businesses to get insurance for that, and that is certainly something that I will talk to my colleagues, the Minister for Climate Change and the Minister for Economy about, although I can obviously make no guarantees on that one today.
But we are also using our procurement levers to enable small businesses to benefit from public sector procurement opportunities. Billions of pounds-worth of contracts are advertised through Sell2Wales, and through collaboration with public sector buyers, Business Wales encourages our small businesses to develop their tendering capabilities to win more business. Through a wider commitment to improving supply chains, we support businesses to sign up to the ethical supply chain code of practice, and we are committed to the benefits of procurement levers and are putting social partnership on a statutory footing through the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill.
So, Small Business Saturday is a great initiative to shine a light on the importance of supporting the retail and hospitality sectors, which, of course, are key parts of the foundational economy. So, I'm supportive of the motion that has been proposed, and we'll continue to do all that we can to support micros and SMEs here in Wales, and I would encourage everyone across Wales to shop locally and to support our independent small businesses, not just on Small Business Saturday but throughout the year so that we can retain and grow local wealth in communities across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

I call now on Sam Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Sam Rowlands MS: Diolch, Llywydd, and can I say what a pleasure it is to close today's debate on small businesses, ahead of Small Business Saturday, of course, which is taking place, as we heard, this weekend? As outlined by Paul Davies in opening today's debate, this will be the tenth year in which we mark Small Business Saturday and celebrate with our counterparts across the United Kingdom the 5.6 million small businesses, of course with the best of those being here in Wales. I'd like to firstly thank Members from across the Chamber and the political divide for their contributions today, along with the cross-party support that this motion has received here today as well.
In closing today's debate, I'd like to focus on three key themes that I think have been picked up from Members across the Chamber. The first point that has shone through is the sheer importance of small businesses to the Welsh economy and to our local communities, highlighted in point 2 of today's motion. And as highlighted by Paul Davies in his opening contribution to today's debate, and by the Deputy Minister in closing earlier on as well, small businesses in Wales make up a whopping 99.4 per cent of all businesses, contributing 62.4 per cent of private sector employment and 37.9 per cent of turnover—a really significant part of our economy. And it's been clear through the debate today that, not only are they playing that part in terms of our economy but also play an important role in our local communities. And Members have highlighted that, in times of crisis or in need, small businesses are often at the forefront of our local communities and tackling many of the social challenges that we see around us. And small businesses do so much in showing the very best in our local communities. I've enjoyed the shameless name dropping from some Members from across the Chamber, outlining some of their favourite small businesses in their patch.
The second point that has been picked up by Members—and Heledd Fychan pointed it out in particular—are the number of challenges that are facing small businesses up and down Wales. And, regretfully, as we know and as outlined by Natasha Asghar and James Evans, businesses in Wales pay some of the highest business rates in the whole of Great Britain. In addition to this, Luke Fletcher pointed out the current cost-of-living challenge hitting our small businesses hard, and then Heledd Fychan, again, in particular focused on the challenges that some of those seeking insurance are finding at the moment hindering, perhaps, their businesses at the moment. This is why we certainly need to see further support provided to small businesses.
And, as a final point in my contribution this afternoon, James Evans, again, pointed out how crucially important it is that we remember that businesses are not the enemy. We need to do our utmost to support them. That's why I'm looking forward to seeing many Members from across the Chamber visiting those small businesses or promoting theirs in their constituencies and regions over this weekend. Point 3 of our motion states that Welsh Government does need to use all of its levers to better support small businesses in Wales, and it was highlighted by Paul Davies, again, that around 35,000 small businesses in Wales are expected to downsize or even close in the coming months. And, Deputy Minister, I was pleased to hear of some of the schemes and initiatives that Welsh Government are seeking to take and have taken over recent years, but it's clear to me, more than ever, that one of the most significant things that Welsh Government could do is to look at reducing that business rate burden, which would put money back into the businesses on our high streets.
So, in closing, Llywydd, as Members from across the Chamber have outlined, small businesses are crucial to the Welsh economy, crucial to our local communities. Now is the time to do everything we can in supporting them and providing an environment for them to flourish in. I thank Members for all their contributions today, and I look forward to their continued support. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

That brings us to voting time, and unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to the vote.

10. Voting Time

The first vote this afternoon is on item 7, the debate on the petition on protecting the Cambrian mountains by designating them an area of outstanding natural beauty. And I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Jack Sargeant. Open the vote. In favour 43, 11 abstentions, none against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 7: debate on petition P-06-1302—'Protect Mid-Wales’ unique Cambrian Mountains: designate them an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty'. For: 43, Against: 0, Abstain: 11
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on item 8—the Welsh Conservatives' debate on a Wales COVID-19 inquiry special purpose committee. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, and 27 against. Therefore, as required under Standing Order 6.20, I exercise my casting vote against the motion. The result of the vote therefore is: in favour 27, no abstentions, 28 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

Item 8: Welsh Conservatives Debate—Wales COVID-19 inquiry special purpose committee. For: 27, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting for today.

Alun Davies AC: Presiding Officer, I did ask during the debate on that—

I've moved on to—

Alun Davies AC: Oh, come on. We've got to know why the Government can't table business.

Can I confirm to the Member, I think I did pick up on the fact that he referred to the fact that the Government was not able to table amendments on Friday afternoon of last week to the debate on the COVID inquiry? It has been a subject of correspondence between me and the First Minister, and I'm happy to publish that correspondence so that all Members are aware of the reason the amendments, as proposed by the Government, were not in order for that debate.FootnoteLink

Correspondence from the First Minister and the Llywydd's response

Alun Davies AC: Diolch yn fawr.

Okay. And you're not getting, Alun Davies, just to put you on a warning, two points of order in every single Plenary meeting from now on, right. So, that's not setting a precedent.

11. Short Debate: A safety net for children: Delivering children's right to be safe online

Right, the short debate—Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Presiding Officer. In this debate, I've agreed to give time to Peter Fox, Jayne Bryant and Heledd Fychan to contribute to this debate today.
It's a worrying fact that the scale and extent of child sexual abuse online has been steadily increasing. Research by the NSPCC shows a tenfold increase in online sexual abuse offences recorded by police in England and Wales over the last decade. There are now nearly as many crimes being recorded in a month as there were in a year 10 years ago. There is no doubt that technology is advancing at a tremendous rate. And the data shows that grooming is increasingly going up and up across platforms across England and also Wales, recording 70 different apps and games involved in grooming crimes in the last 12 months alone. Multiple social media sites were often used in the same offence. Girls are being disproportionately affected, with research revealing that 80 per cent of the victims in online grooming crimes are in fact girls.
The sheer scale and increase in online sexual abuse facing our children is fundamental and is indeed a contravention of their rights under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, particularly articles 19 and 39, which are concerned with freedom from and recovery from violence.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Natasha Asghar AS: The Online Safety Bill, currently at Report Stage in the House of Commons, delivers the UK Government’s manifesto commitment to make the UK the safest place in the world to be online, while defending free expression. The Bill has been strengthened and clarified since it was published in draft in May 2021, reflecting the outcome of extensive parliamentary scrutiny. So, let me tell you all today what the Bill does. The Bill introduces new rules for firms that host user-generated content, which ultimately allows users to post their own content online or interact with each other, and for search engines, which will have tailored duties focused on minimising the presentation of harmful search results to the user. The platforms that fail to protect people will need to answer to the regulator and could face fines of up to 10 per cent of their revenues or, in the most serious cases, being blocked.
It was great to hear about some of the work being carried out by Twitter and TikTok to keep people safe online when I met with the social media giants recently at their headquarters. Twitter, for example, allows users to mute certain words, phrases, emojis and hashtags, and also to control who can reply to tweets. Earlier this year, the company launched the Twitter Circle experiment. Users choose who is in their Twitter Circle and only the individuals you’ve added can reply and interact with the tweets that you share. These are just some of the safety tools Twitter users can access. Companies like Twitter take online safety incredibly seriously, and they remain committed to investing in the moderation of illegal or harmful content as they endeavour to provide a service that is safe and informative for all. From July to December 2021, Twitter removed 4 million tweets that violated their rules, and, of the tweets removed, 71 per cent received fewer than 100 impressions prior to removal, with an additional 21 per cent receiving between 100 and 1,000 impressions. Only 8 per cent of removed Tweets had more than 1,000 impressions.
For those who like numbers and statistics, like me, in total, impressions on these violative tweets accounted for less than 0.01 per cent of all impressions for all tweets during the time in this period. All platforms in scope will need to tackle and remove illegal material online, particularly material relating to terrorism and child sexual exploitation and abuse as well. Platforms likely to be accessed by children will also have an enormous duty to protect young children using their services from legal but harmful material such as self-harm content around eating disorders. TikTok has taken a safety-by-design approach to preventing harm online, which, I must admit, is truly commendable. The company has made a number of changes for users aged under 18, such as designing its settings to be private by default. For example, users aged 13 to 15 are given private accounts by default, meaning their videos can only be watched by people they approve as followers. TikTok also has appropriate age features, which restricts what can be sent via private messaging, has age checks and assurances. It also allows parents and caregivers to link their TikTok account with their teen’s and customise various safety settings.
Between April and June this year, it is worth noting that TikTok removed more than 113 million videos—roughly 1 per cent of the content that was uploaded to TikTok—for violating its community guidelines. Of these videos, it’s worth mentioning that 95.9 per cent of this content was removed proactively by TikTok before it was reported by a user, 90.5 per cent of content was removed before it had received a single view, and 93.7 per cent of content was removed within 24 hours.
Additionally, providers who publish or place pornographic content on their services will be required to prevent children from accessing that content. The largest, highest risk platforms will have to address named categories of legal but harmful material accessed by adults likely to include issues such as abuse, harassment or exposure to content encouraging self-harm or eating disorders. They will need to make clear in their terms and conditions what is and is not acceptable on their site, and enforce this, and enforce it properly. These services will have a duty to bring in user empowerment tools, giving adult users more control over whom they interact with and the legal content they see, as well as the option to verify their identity.
We all love and appreciate freedom of expression, and it will be protected, because these laws are not about imposing excessive regulation or state removal of content, but ensuring that companies have the systems and processes in place to ensure users’ safety. For anyone here who thinks the Bill is weak or watered down, let me assure you that it offers a triple shield of protection, so it's certainly not weaker in any sense. The triple shield requires platforms to, firstly, remove illegal content, secondly, remove material that violates their terms and conditions, giving users controls to help them avoid seeing certain types of content to be specified by the Bill, and also remove material that violates their terms and conditions. This could also include content promoting eating disorders or inciting hate on the basis of race, ethnicity, sexual orientation or even gender reassignment. The Center for Countering Digital Hate chief executive Imran Ahmed actually added that it was welcome the Government
'had strengthened the law against encouragement of self-harm and distribution of intimate images without consent'.
Much of the enforcement of the new law will be by communications and media regulator Ofcom, who we often hear about regarding tv and other online provision, which will be able to fine companies—which I mentioned earlier—up to 10 per cent of their worldwide revenue, which does accumulate into the billions. The actual rules themselves must now consult the victims' commissioner, the domestic abuse commissioner and the children's commissioner when drawing up the codes technology companies must follow moving forward. Proportionate measures will avoid unnecessary burdens on small and low-risk business. Finally, the largest platforms will need to put in place proportionate systems and processes to prevent fraudulent adverts being published or hosted on their service. This will ultimately tackle the harmful scam adverts that have been having a devastating effect on their victims, regardless of their age and background.
I know concerns have been raised about perceived delays in the progress of this Bill through Parliament, and I welcome the assurance given by a spokesperson at the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, and I quote:
'Protecting children and stamping out illegal activity online is a top priority for the government and we will bring the Online Safety Bill back to Parliament as soon as possible.'
So, I hope the Bill passes its remaining stages as soon as is practical. When this is achieved, we in the Senedd should focus on what we can do to ensure the new regulatory regime is implemented in a way that prevents, protects, supports, and advocates the rights of children in the online world right here in Wales. Passing the legislation will be a significant milestone. However, let’s be real—no online safety Bill can remove all threats and issues from the lives of children. Five years after the introduction of the first Welsh Government action plan on online safety, it’s time we look, take stock and define Wales’s role in the new regulatory regime. It's crucial that children’s voices should be at the heart of shaping Wales’s role post legislation. Every effort should be made to engage children and young people, to hear their concerns, but also to find solutions for how we can make the online world a safer place for them all.
I would like to ask the Welsh Government to set up an inquiry into child online safety to audit what exact gaps are remaining to realise children’s right to be safer online. Areas for consideration by this committee could and should include, firstly, how we ensure the new relationship and sexuality education curriculum supports and realises children and young people’s right to be safe and protected online. Secondly, it should examine what additional training should be rolled out for professionals who work with children and young people. Thirdly, it should also scrutinise the Welsh Government’s enhancing digital resilience in education action plan, the forthcoming peer-on-peer sexual harassment action plan and any successor to the action plan on preventing and responding to child sexual abuse. This would ensure that they speak to one another, put politics aside and deliver an approach that protects children and young people, and enables them to speak out, seek and receive the support they need, as protecting youth, once again, for us is paramount. And finally, it could consider the risks and adequacy of responses relating to online communication through the Welsh language. Exploring children’s needs and experiences in this space would ensure that all children are receiving equality of protection.
Deputy Presiding Officer, the UK Government’s Online Safety Bill should not be an end but a means to an end. The Welsh Government must build on the Bill to tackle the drivers of online harm. The onus must not solely be on the child to be resilient or to keep themselves safe online; the Welsh Government must fulfil its duty to Welsh children under the UNCRC and ensure it responds to the unprecedented levels of grooming and child sexual abuse that we are currently seeing online every day. Thank you.

Jayne Bryant AC: I would like to say 'thank you very much' to Natasha for raising this today. It's an incredibly important debate and, on the Children, Young People and Education Committee here in the Senedd, we've already heard about the importance of online safety in our work. Our inquiry into peer-on-peer sexual harassment told us that young people's behaviour in schools is a reflection of trends that are already well established across society. It's clear to us that those trends are exacerbated and amplified by children's unregulated access to inappropriate or illegal online content. The internet is not always harmful to young people, but unrealistic depictions of sex and relationships can create unhealthy attitudes among young people, and social networking platforms can create pressure for young people to look or behave a certain way.
Last spring, we heard broad support for the UK Government's Online Safety Bill and, at that time, the Bill recognised that children and young people can be particularly vulnerable and need protection from illegal and inappropriate content. Our engagement as a committee with UK Government Ministers and officials about this Bill has been positive. It's a huge Bill, spanning hundreds of pages, and we will be receiving a technical briefing on the implications of the Bill from DCMS officials in early spring. I know that the Minister will be looking at the progress of this Bill very carefully, and I'd urge the Welsh Government to do what it can to ensure that the Bill retains the provisions that safeguard children as it continues its scrutiny journey at Westminster.

Peter Fox AS: Can I thank you, Natasha, for bringing this debate forward and allowing me a minute of your time? I'm sure every Member in this Chamber will welcome the action taken by the Government to create a safety net for children with its Online Safety Bill. With internet usage and social media use by children vastly increasing, it's right that we are making the internet a safer place for them. It's right that we do all we can to protect the most vulnerable from that harmful content, and the Online Safety Bill will go a considerable distance to achieving this aim.
But, I recognise some of the anxieties caused by recent news of changes made to the Bill, most notably that tech giants are not being mandated to remove content that is legal but harmful. However, I was reassured, and I hope others were, to hear the digital secretary, Michelle Donelan, outline how the Bill will protect children. It will criminalise the encouragement of self-harm, requiring businesses to mandate user age limits and other necessary protective measures.
Child protection must be a priority at both national and devolved level. It would be remiss of me not to put on record the good work that is already taking place in this field, but more is needed. As Natasha has already suggested, a credible step forward would be delivering an inquiry into child online safety in Wales to establish any gaps that have not been filled by the Online Safety Bill. We need to build upon the Online Safety Bill.
As a grandfather of seven, I suppose I speak for so many people who have children, and the eldest of whom is five and is now accessing the internet, believe it or not—or rather, technology, and it won't be long before she's accessing the internet—I sincerely hope that the further regulations put in place here and in Government will protect her and the many thousands of children like her, and generations to come, because it's absolutely important for us to do all we can to protect the most vulnerable in our society from unscrupulous people out there. Thank you.

Heledd Fychan AS: I thank Natasha for bringing this forward.

Heledd Fychan AS: I have to say, I don't share Peter Fox's reassurances. I am concerned to see the 'legal but harmful' element removed. What concerns me the most has been the delay. I think it's in all of our interests to ensure that pressure is put on the UK Government to deliver this as quickly as possible.

Heledd Fychan AS: NSPCC Wales have been clear that 200 and more children will suffer sexual abuse online for every month that the Online Safety Bill is delayed. Things change so quickly in this area, and it's impossible for us to safeguard children entirely, but I am very concerned to see the changes, with Twitter now also making redundant staff who have been working specifically in this area. We can see with any platform that changes can happen very quickly. So, of course, there is a very serious element for us in terms of the Welsh Government to look at the implications and the things that we want to see and can support here in Wales, but there is a duty on the UK Government to bring this Bill forward, to reconsider the elements that would strengthen and safeguard children, and we need to do that urgently, because the statistics do show clearly that this is having an impact on children and young people. We have to take action now.

I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to reply to the debate. Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank the Member for moving this important short debate. As a Government, we are eager to spread the benefits of the internet and encourage the safe use of technology.

Jeremy Miles AC: Children and young people are highly engaged internet users at increasingly younger ages, as we've heard in the debate this evening. It's no surprise that Ofcom's latest 'Children and parents: media use and attitudes report 2022' found that 99 per cent of children went online last year. Growing up in this digital age, children do not differentiate their online and offline lives in the same way as older generations. They are one and the same. Children and young people expect their rights to be equally upheld online as they do offline, and they are right to do so. As a Government, we are fully committed to making the principles of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child a reality for all children in Wales, and I was pleased that, last year, the UNCRC adopted general comment 25, which now sees children's rights apply online as they do offline.

Jeremy Miles AC: Online safety is a complex societal issue. Tackling it requires a multi-agency approach. Our national digital resilience action plan outlines the commitments we are undertaking across Government, along with expert partners, to enhance the protection for children and young people online. A collaborative approach is essential to make real progress and, therefore, partnership working is at the heart of the action plan. Reflecting the continually evolving nature of the digital world, the action plan is updated annually, adding new work streams, as well as providing a summary of progress against work to date. This year's action plan sets out over 70 actions that we are delivering with our partners to enhance online safety provision and practice across Wales, and I'd like to highlight some of the key activities we continue to take forward.
Earlier this year, I had the privilege of announcing the winners of our Safer Internet Day film competition, 'Respect me. My internet, my rights'. The films were extremely thought-provoking and they emphasised the power of young people's voices and their rights to be safe from online harm. It is essential that we listen to young people's experiences to truly understand the online world through their eyes, and their voice is central to our programme and drives our policy development.
This year, we've set up a new youth panel for digital resilience. This panel brings together young people from across Wales to influence and directly inform our work to enhance online safety. I look forward to hearing from the panel, and wish to extend my thanks to those young people for volunteering their time to support this important work.
With so much information at their fingertips, we know that young people often go online to seek support and advice. Earlier this year, we launched 'Online issues and worries', a new area on Hwb's'Keeping safe online', specifically for children and young people. This advice was co-constructed with young people and aims to support them if they are concerned about an online issue. This new advice expands the reach of Hwb's 'Keeping safe online', our dedicated one-stop-stop, which hosts news, advice and guidance on a breadth of digital resilience issues. This critical area has continued to evolve. It now hosts over 400 resources to support children and young people, as well as their families and school communities. Through 'Keeping safe online', schools have access to an extensive offer of bilingual teaching resources, as well as training opportunities, and these cover a range of topical online safety issues, including sharing nude images, peer-on-peer online sexual harassment and misinformation.
I was able recently to attend the launch of resources developed with the Football Association of Wales, targeted at boys, around some of the online harms that can be caused and, equally, visited a school in the Cynon valley to hear from young women there about the experiences they'd had of working with technology companies to provide guidance to their peers as well. There is a wealth of resource that is being generated, including by young people themselves.
Online safety is constantly evolving, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's important that we keep pace and equip our education practitioners with knowledge about the latest trends and risks, and how to support their learners to navigate them. For the first time, next March, we will host two national digital resilience in education conferences. These events will shine a spotlight on online safety and will provide schools with the knowledge and resources that they need to continue to drive the development of online safety in education. It's critical that online safety is embedded firmly within a safeguarding culture. It should not be seen as merely an IT or digital issue. Digital resilience is now integral within our statutory safeguarding in education guidance, and firmly on the agenda of the national safeguarding in education group.
This year, my officials are working in partnership with Estyn, meeting local authorities and headteachers to examine how they've embedded online safety within their safeguarding policy, provision and practice. While education plays an important role, many of the online safety issues schools report take place beyond the school gates and outside of school hours. Therefore, it's critical that we engage with parents and carers, and the action plan includes several actions to provide families with support and advice on a range of online safety issues. Recognising that many online issues play out on social media, the Welsh Government developed 'In the Know'. The series provides parents and carers with key information about social media and gaming apps popular with children and young people. We continue to build on this series, as well as exploring other ways to support parents.
Across the world, there is a strong debate about the role that legislation should play in making the internet safer, and that's been highlighted in today's debate. It is vital that the onus must not rest with children to protect themselves from online harms. The UK Government has outlined its plans through the introduction of the long-awaited Online Safety Bill earlier this year. I welcome the ambition of the Bill in respect of the enhanced protection for children and young people. It is essential that the UK Government now priorities this work, and I support the calls made by many of our partners to take forward the Bill with no further delays, and I echo the point that Heledd Fychan made in the debate.
I was pleased to see the recent amendment brought forward outlining the intention of crimialising the assisting or encouraging of self-harm online, to which Natasha Asghar drew particular attention. Abhorrent behaviour such as this should have no place in our society, and I'm also glad to see that controlling and coercive behaviour will be added to the list of priority offences within the Bill.
While the UK Government seeks to strike a balance between free speech and safety, it is critical that changes made to the Bill are not at the expense of children's safety and do not dilute the impact this legislation can have. I urge them to commit to maximising the much-needed protection this Bill affords for children.
Social media and online platforms must be challenged, in the way we've heard in the debate today, to ensure that they tackle harmful content on their platforms. Ofcom will ultimately play a key role as they develop robust codes of practice to hold online platforms to account. We look forward to continuing to engage with them to make social media and online platforms a safer and better place for all.
Let me be clear, Dirprwy Lywydd, our children and young people have the right to be safe online. They have the right to be free from online bullying, they have the right to be free from online hate and violence, and the right to be free from online abuse and harassment. The Welsh Government is playing its part to ensure that our children and young people are empowered to be responsible, ethical and informed citizens. It is my firm commitment to drive our mission to ensure their rights to be safe are fully realised, and I call on the UK Government to act without further delay.

Thank you, all. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 19:13.